Slitherine

Are 88's strong enough vs bunkers?
I'm looking for opinions before I start mucking around in 'units.csv'
Thanx to all replies and Cheers from Virginia

Personally I think the 88 is underpowered

I just ran this test (screenshot below), I lined up a bunch of jerry units and sent them in one by one to attack the American bunker, and yes, the 88mm Flak37 only has a very weak combat projection of 1 4.
The other AT gun is a Pak 40 75mm and it too is weak against the bunker with a projection of 1 3.
For the record, the combat projections for all the units in the test were-
Tiger E and Pz IVH= 4+ 0
Pz38(t)E= 3 0+
Infantry 1944= 2 2
Pak 40 75mm ATG= 1 3
88mm Flak 37 (AT mode)= 1 4
105mm leFH18 gun= 1 0
Stuka B= 0+ 0

Note the three tanks were the best bunker-busters, even the little Pz 38(t)E with it's small 37mm gun had an excellent 3 0+ projection, that's because no matter how thick bunkers are, their slit has zero armour, so sooner or later shells and bullets and flamethrowers are going to sail through the slit..




Flak 88 and crew, Russia 1942

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

Thanks for the hard work, Spike. Like he demonstrated, the 88 is not good against bunkers in OoB. However, irl it was and I guess this is what stan23 has in mind. I'm not sure how much can be done by mucking around in 'units.csv'. If the game had a trait "bunker buster" or something similar it might be another thing entirely.

From The German 88: The Most Famous Gun of the Second World War by Terry Gander:

"It was not until an 88 was manhandled through the streets approaching the river that the opposing French bunkers could be overcome. That single gun was able to fire directly against the French weapon embrasures and damage the defending weapons, wound or disable the bunker occupants with projectile splinters or destroy the bunkers altogether by punching holes through their structures. [...]

Without the direct fire of those 88s against the French bunkers, the Meuse crossings of 13 May 1940 would have been either severely delayed or costly in casualties. As it was, they did delay the German advance for a while, and German casualtics were significant (but lighter than anticipated), but the deployment of a few 88s made the Gerrnan operation a complete success."

My dad (airborne vet of Normandy, Bulge & Germany) would often say the Germans would aim the 88's at a single man.
IIRC he saw them take out a truck driver once

If they could do that, they certainly could hit a bunker slit.

Yes guys, and although historically the general rule was for ATG's to be used as purely static defensive weapons, there were always exceptions to the rule when they could be trundled forward to engage targets of opportunity.

Pak 40 75mm in northern France, October 1943



Pak 40 75mm in Russia 1944

Thanks for the replies guys. Consensus seems to be that 88's should be better at "Bunker Busting"
But can anything to be done???
Greets from Virginia.

BTW Spike
I always enjoy your tests and pics. Well done.

stan23 wrote:Consensus seems to be that 88's should be better at "Bunker Busting"
But can anything to be done???

I'm afraid the answer is no, because you can't restrict the attack value only against bunkers. That's why I think a trait would do the trick, but those are probably hardcoded.

There are several superb modders around here and I hope they will share their views.

stan23 wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. Consensus seems to be that 88's should be better at "Bunker Busting"
But can anything to be done???

The bunker's defense type = infantry, that means you would have to either change that to "mechanical" or increase the "inf att" values of the 88. But this would definitely change the balance of things and affect the interaction with other units as well...
My advice: modify at your own risk

Yeah, AT guns like that tend to deal Mechanical, but take Infantry damage. Pretty much the worst matchup versus bunkers!

I suspect that you would indeed need some sort of trait to flip their damage types against fixed targets

edit: Actually, if I was to mod it, I'd create a variant of the 88 that does just that, flips to dealing Inf Damage. And have that as a mode switch for the 88. You'd have to self-regulate, else you'll be mopping up infantry squads with it, but it would give you what you want?

Wouldn't make sense to have an 88 that's good against squads of infantry in direct attack... Historical inaccuracy aside, then it'd have AA, AT, and anti-infantry function? I'd be just carrying 20 of these in my core!

So let me see if I have this right.
The bunker's defense type = infantry, that means you would have to either change that to "mechanical" or increase the "inf att" values of the 88.
Well why not change to mechanical. Bunkers seem to be more of a hard target in line with mechanical anyway.

If bunkers are mechanical, 50% of the scenarios where they are present will need complete rebalancing as mechanical targets are way tougher.

The weakness of 88's v bunkers is a design oversight, but it's not too important because trundling up an 88 adjacent to a bunker to attack it is hardly ever going to happen in OOB anyway..

If you're using Flak 8.8 to attack other units directly you're doing something wrong. Flak 8.8 is a support unit and a damn good one. It's actually the most supply efficient unit in the game.

Mojko wrote:If you're using Flak 8.8 to attack other units directly you're doing something wrong. Flak 8.8 is a support unit and a damn good one.

But maybe not necesserily "wrong". They're cheap to repair, way cheaper than my high-star tanks, so why not use the 88 as AT support first, and then move one hex to attack the tank directly? There's nothing "wrong" with that. They deal considerate damage to the enemy, so my armoured units can finish it off easily.

GabeKnight wrote: But maybe not necesserily "wrong". They're cheap to repair, way cheaper than my high-star tanks, so why not use the 88 as AT support first, and then move one hex to attack the tank directly? There's nothing "wrong" with that. They deal considerate damage to the enemy, so my armoured units can finish it off easily.

That's exactly the way I try to use my 88s. The combat prognosis is pretty much always too pessimistic and you end up taking fewer losses than expected and the 88 gains some experience. Then the tank(s) can wipe out the enemy (usually without losses).