Slitherine

It can be a pain in most OOB scens (and most other wargames) when one or more enemy units tries to cut our supply lines and/or waltz into our supply depots, but it's historically realistic so we have to grit our teeth and bear it, and regard it as a challenge to our awesome wargaming talents to protect our supply lines..
For example I'm two-thirds into the Rising Sun>Java scenario (below); my Jap army has advanced from left to right along the big red arrows; the wavy thick red line is the front line, and the blue arrows are the sporadic Allied thrusts against my long supply line.
To keep them at bay, I've had to station no less than 8 (repeat 8 ) jap infantry units (yellow circles) on static garrison duty to protect my supply lines and depots!
PS- maybe a future version of OOB could introduce a new "Detachment" unit that we could purchase for peanuts with a maximum strength of say 5. That way we could use them to protect our supply lines rather than have to use valuable expensive full strength units?

PoorOldSpike wrote:PS- maybe a future version of OOB could introduce a new "Detachment" unit that we could purchase for peanuts with a maximum strength of say 5.

It seems impossible to change the parameter "maximum strength" which is 10 by default.

There was talk about introducing a low-strength garrison unit a while back. I think adherbal thought it was a nice idea at the time.
THis could a Military Police unit like the British already have in their roster. The Germans had their Sicherheit units.

Yes guys, there'd have to be a strength cap on any new garrison-type units to stop them becoming full strength combat units.
As a matter of interest in the US Marines> 'Blissful and Goodtime' scenario there's a 'Marine Scouts' unit and a 'Coastwatcher' unit (top two pics below) which the designer must have specially created, they begin the game at only '1' strength, but if you can get them into a supply zone you can build them up to '10' strength in the usual way like I did in the bottom left pic.
Ideally they should be capped at '1' so they remain as simple eyeballs and not combat units.
Likewise any garrison units which we discussed earlier should also be capped at say strength '5'.
I know the Pz Corps editor allows capping like that, but I don't know if the OOB editor does.

Concur with all these thoughts. As I pointed out in another thread, in PvP all is fair game. But when playing against AI, the evil scenario designer could put units down that could attack your supply lines and cut off troops - if one is not advised in advance, that is maddening and revolting. Erik2 explained that at times, counterattacking units can approach your lines so I am cool with that. I like the idea of leaving behind cheap, weak garrison units that don't take away CPs that can't be moved (except to disband) as part of the scenarios. But it sounds like I'm whining now so I really am at a loss about this now.

When I first started playing OoB it took a long time to get over the constant fear of supply line disruption (a significant, persistent feature of UoC). But that fear is assuaged now knowing that the scenario designers wouldn't subject their players to such time-wasting, aggravating issues. Guarding a strong point against counterattack is a lot different than paranoid worries about your entire supply line.

i suppose i could go on but i'm afraid i'll start making sense... good discussion!

conboy

It's to bad there is no way to split up a regular unit into 2 or 3 parts, like peeling away Reg. from a Div or Btlns from a Reg.
But I'm sure that's impossible. Too bad, because I too constantly worry about my supply lines getting cut as well.

I don't think that creating a new mechanic for garrison units is necessary. We already have auxiliary units. Btw there is no need to leave units guarding the left middle side. The main enemy counter attack will come to the large city in the upper left part. I left 4 auxiliary units there which worked just fine (middle difficulty).

Mojko wrote:I don't think that creating a new mechanic for garrison units is necessary. We already have auxiliary units. Btw there is no need to leave units guarding the left middle side. The main enemy counter attack will come to the large city in the upper left part. I left 4 auxiliary units there which worked just fine (middle difficulty).

1- Low strength low-experience garrison units existed historically, so OOB could do with them too..
2- Even if we have aux's we have to waste them on static rear area garrison duty, whereas they'd be much more use in the combat zone.
3- Scen creators might have used the "random" feature in the editor to make different numbers of AI units appear at different places each time we play the scen, so we can never be sure what might pop up to threaten our supply lines, and must therefore err on the side of caution by stationing enough garrisons to our rear.
What sage words of wisdom can you give us grasshopper?



So my general garrison strategy in all scens is to therefore definitely garrison at least a couple of big supply centres at all times, and to place a couple more garrisons at key bridges and road junctions etc making a total of about 4 garrisons per game.
Then if the enemy starts probing (or dropping paras or ferrying in seaborne units) in some scens, I can quickly reinforce my garrisons by simply buying and deploying new units in the threatened sector. That's what happened in my earlier big map screenshot where I had to beef up my garrisons. Later of course when the enemy threat has subsided we can send most of the garrisons up to the combat zone.
PS- engineers are cheap so they're a good choice as garrisons if we're low on purchase points or command points, but it seems a waste to use them on static duty.

PoorOldSpike wrote: 1- Low strength low-experience garrison units existed historically, so OOB could do with them too..
2- Even if we have aux's we have to waste them on static rear area garrison duty, whereas they'd be much more use in the combat zone.
3- Scen creators might have used the "random" feature in the editor to make different numbers of AI units appear at different places each time we play the scen, so we can never be sure what might pop up to threaten our supply lines, and must therefore err on the side of caution by stationing enough garrisons to our rear.
What sage words of wisdom can you give us grasshopper?

I couldn't disagree with you more on this one. You have plenty of tools to keep an eye out for enemy counter attacks like recon or fighter planes (once they're done with enemy fighters). Having the possibility of getting outflanked and undersupplied are GOOD for the game. Adding garrison units weakens this mechanic and that's BAD. In this scenario I had one recon plane flying back and forth in the middle left part to monitor the movements of the enemy. There was another scenario in Winter War where two of my auxiliary units were able to cut off a large column of Soviet tanks. With garrison units present, no such possibility is available.

I would actually go even further. I dislike that you can actually see the supply lines changes in the fog of war. If you pay attention you can actually see enemy counter attack coming even in the fog of war area, because the supply lines area changes. This isn't shown during enemy phase but can still be done. I'm not sure how to fix that though.

Mojko wrote:..Having the possibility of getting outflanked and undersupplied are GOOD for the game. Adding garrison units weakens this mechanic and that's BAD..

I'm not sure I follow you mate, yes I agree enemy threats to our supply lines is good and realistic.
Therefore isn't putting a few boots-on-the-ground garrisons the best way to protect them? ..

I'm with Mojko on this. You do have the tools to deal with the enemy without additional units. In this Battle of Java I used a smaller force advancing in the south to protect the flank and encircling enemy units when possible. It worked well and the enemy posed no threats to my supply lines.

CoolDTA wrote:I'm with Mojko on this. You do have the tools to deal with the enemy without additional units. In this Battle of Java I used a smaller force advancing in the south to protect the flank and encircling enemy units when possible. It worked well and the enemy posed no threats to my supply lines.

Yes, we all have our own different playing style and choices of tactics and strategy, and unit purchase preferences, and routes of advance etc, so whatever floats yer boat! I somehow manage to muddle through by playing my way and win just about every OOB scenario I play at medium difficulty level 3, so I must be doing something right. In fact I drum into my wargame recruits in various other games- "You're in command, so do it YOUR way"..

"I decided to ignore my orders and to take command at the front with my own hands as soon as possible"- Rommel on arriving in Africa
"I attribute my success on the battlefield to always being on the spot to see and do everything for myself"- Duke of Wellington

PoorOldSpike wrote:"You're in command, so do it YOUR way"..

"I decided to ignore my orders and to take command at the front with my own hands as soon as possible"- Rommel on arriving in Africa
"I attribute my success on the battlefield to always being on the spot to see and do everything for myself"- Duke of Wellington

Very true and one of the good things in OoB is that you can prevail using different tactics.

PoorOldSpike wrote:I'm not sure I follow you mate, yes I agree enemy threats to our supply lines is good and realistic.
Therefore isn't putting a few boots-on-the-ground garrisons the best way to protect them? ..

My point is that the game already has tools that can be used to counter flanking and undersupply. All these tools require decision making, therefore are interesting. The idea of garrison units does not involve a lot of decision making. It's basically, I conquered some area I will leave a garrison force behind and move on with my army. That's not interesting, therefore it's bad for the game.

Yes Mojko, it's fairly easy to see when our supply lines and depots are under threat by monitoring the movement of the front line and/or overflying with planes like you said, but we still have to rush units to those sectors to deal with the threat because nothing else can.
if we've got enough purchase and command points we can buy a unit and plonk it in a threatened depot, but if we're short on points we can disband a unit to free up enough points to buy a new unit.
My strategy is therefore to already have garrisons in place at several key depots, and beef them up if necessary with extra bought units.
After the threat is dealt with, those units can be sent up to the front line.

It could be usefull to have Garrison or/and Security units. Others wargames have it.

Don't forget that you can always mine important supply hexes and roads. Also there's the "Defensive Doctrine" spec for the Japanese. Its useful to build some foxholes or bunkers on the way to reduce the risk of supply cut-off.

Actually, the Japanese ability to build foxholes could be a nice way to add garrisions for all factions.
It could generate a garrision unit that was immobile and had intrinsic supply.
A simple solution already programmed in the game.
You would need to have a infantry unit present to buld the garrison unit in the specific location, but that shold be part of your overall planning.

CoolDTA wrote:..one of the good things in OoB is that you can prevail using different tactics.

Yes, and unit purchasing also plays a huge part in whether we prevail or not..
It's FUN to see what's up for sale in each scenario and choose accordingly, personally I usually always buy the best units on offer regardless of the cost.
As a great prophet once said-
"Go big or go home"- Donald Trump

Erik2 wrote:Actually, the Japanese ability to build foxholes could be a nice way to add garrisions for all factions.
It could generate a garrision unit that was immobile and had intrinsic supply.
A simple solution already programmed in the game.
You would need to have a infantry unit present to buld the garrison unit in the specific location, but that shold be part of your overall planning.

This shouldn't be too hard to do in a mod for the infantry units either - no specialisation would be needed. Instead of foxholes one could build a new "garrison" unit with weak stats, no movement points, high entrench values and maybe even with no repair capability. But is it really necessary? Sounds like mines. Just use mines!

How about a special unit that can construct concrete bunkers, coastal guns, and airstrips? You don't have to buy and use that unit if you don't want to, but it may help in many scenarios. That's rather something I'll try to implement in my mod. I'd like to build railway bridges with them, too, but I'm not sure if that's possible.

Or subs transporting commando units? I think that could be a good idea and shouldn't be too hard to implement in a mod also.