Slitherine

Hello,

After looking at the game for the past year, and finding a few local players who are also interested, I decided to buy the rules and give my first historical game a go.

As we have been reading through the rules, and playing a few simple games, questions have come up. I figured I would post them here as they come up, hopefully some more experienced players might be able to answer.

- Currently, the question we have has to do with light foot troops with javelins. Maximum effective range for them is 2MU. We had a situation where a battle group of 4 bases (2 in front, 2 in back) was set up so that only one base was within 2MU of the target. Reading the chart to determine how many dice to roll (p90) we were having a hard time figuring what it meant. It says 1 dice per 2 bases in effective range. Only 1 was. Do you round up? Also, I read that all bases measure from the front row. So, does that mean that 2 bases were in range (the front one and the one behind it) or all 4?

Following the 1 dice per 2 in range, it says 1 dice per 3 bases outside effective range. Javelins have a dash through maximum.


My friend read it to mean that only the one base (and the one behind him, if they do measure from the front) are able to throw. I was having a hard time with the wording, but it seems to imply (based on the 1 dice per 2 and 1 dice per 3 outside) that as long as 1 base is in range, the ones outside effective range can still throw.

Help? As it is, these Velites seem pretty useless, and shooting is about all they can do that we have figured. If they have to be right on top of their target, they are worth even less by my reckoning.


Thanks!

Your friend is right. Only 1 base is in effective range plus the one behind, giving you 2 shooters, but Javelins only get one dice per 2 shooting bases. So only 1 dice. Normally not enough to cause a test, unless the enemy are in column. Javelins do not fire further than effective range.

However, IMO, velites are good troops for the Romans.

1. They are reasonable at clearing enemy LF, just the small unit size as a downfall, as they have an impact weapon, Light Spear, and can be protected, so will be up in melee against most other LF.

2. They are a cheap unit, this means, if you keep them out of melee with harder troops/much bigger units, the enemy has to rout more of your battle troops

3. They are good at slowing the enemy down where you want to delay. 4 bases, move quickly and easily. Get them in front of the main enemy battle line of foot and skirmish or draw his impact foot into rash charges to break up his line before your battle troops get there.

They aren't going to cause a lot of casualties by shooting, but they have more important jobs.

Shooting ranges are measured from the front rank and most troops can shoot in two ranks.

In this case as one front rank base was in range then the second rank base behind it is also in range. As a result you have 2 bases so get 1 dice. There is no rounding so if you have only 1 base you get no dice.

There are plenty of places in FoG where you either get 1 per N or lose 1 per N. In all cases you have to have the full N to get or lose.

Javelin armed light foot are OK but you really need your target to be infront of the light foot otherwise as you discovered they don't do very much.

Shooting in general is not that powerful in FoG, the main effect is to cause some cohesion tests on advancing enemy troops and to disrupt their formation. If you are used to Warhammer style shooting you will find FoG shooting to be a very different beast.

Ok, so what does the 1 per 3 bases outside of effective mean or apply to? Just weapons with a maximum range (bows, in this case)?

I did come from a Warhammer background (40k, Fantasy, as well as Warmachine). My first instinct was to have the velites get up to about range, fire, and hopefully evade when charged. As I am fairly well read with the Roman military (though the army of the republic before Marius is somewhat vague for me) this was what the velites were used for.

Reading further, the advice for beginners in the back of the book helped.. I didnt realize you could get a double move, and I can see how a small unit of skirmishers could disrupt that.

Using the Roman starter army in the main book, the most I could get is 2 dice from the units of velites from shooting. How many do I usually need to force a test?

Omar wrote:Ok, so what does the 1 per 3 bases outside of effective mean or apply to? Just weapons with a maximum range (bows, in this case)?

Some weapons have a higher maximum range specifically bow, longbow, crossbow and artillery. You can't shoot more than your maximum range and in some cases your effective range is your maximum range.

I did come from a Warhammer background (40k, Fantasy, as well as Warmachine). My first instinct was to have the velites get up to about range, fire, and hopefully evade when charged. As I am fairly well read with the Roman military (though the army of the republic before Marius is somewhat vague for me) this was what the velites were used for.

That sounds like a plan.

Reading further, the advice for beginners in the back of the book helped.. I didnt realize you could get a double move, and I can see how a small unit of skirmishers could disrupt that.

Preventing double moves, preventing routing enemy from rallying (you can't rally within 6MU of enemy troops) and threatening the enemy camp are all things that velites are good at in addition to lobing javelins and pushing off enemy skirmishers.

Using the Roman starter army in the main book, the most I could get is 2 dice from the units of velites from shooting. How many do I usually need to force a test?

To cause a test you need to inflict 1 hit per 3 bases on an enemy BG so with the starter armies you can force a test on most of the Carthaginian BGs if both your dice hit. You will manage 2 hits 25% of the time and then depending on generals and rear support you should have a 30-40% chance of disrupting the enemy BG. It means that you have about a 10% chance of disruption whenever you shoot which is not insignificant.

That is helpful.

Another question for you. I was looking at playing a Byzantine army, and I know the period will be represented in the book due to be released later this month.

What sourcebook would have the info for a late roman army, like in the time of Belisarius? If I cant find that I will go with Imperial Rome (Trajan-Hadrian period) as I know that one well too.

I will probably be back with more questions as they come up. Another test game on Sunday.

Belisarius' army is considered to be early Byzantine rather than late Roman and as such it will be included in the Decline and Fall book due this month.

Feel free to ask away.

hammy wrote:Belisarius' army is considered to be early Byzantine rather than late Roman and as such it will be included in the Decline and Fall book due this month.

Not got your copy yet?

Omar wrote:
What sourcebook would have the info for a late roman army, like in the time of Belisarius? If I cant find that I will go with Imperial Rome (Trajan-Hadrian period) as I know that one well too.

Rough time split for Romans and the books is:

Republic to c25BC is in Rise of Rome
Empire to around the fall of the west is in Legions Triumphant
Eastern empire to Manzikert is in Decline and Fall

Ordered both Legions and Decline, should have them by the end of the month.

Thanks!

nikgaukroger wrote:Rough time split for Romans and the books is:

Republic to c25BC is in Rise of Rome
Empire to around the fall of the west is in Legions Triumphant
Eastern empire to Manzikert is in Decline and Fall

and

Manzikert to the recapture of Constantinople from the Latins is in Swords & Scimitars.
The recapture of Constantinople to the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans is in Eternal Empire.

New round of questions after our game today. In no certain order.

- How do you improve unit cohesion? Just having a commander do it? So, if a unit is disordered early on in the game (say, from long range shooting) there is no way to improve it without a commander joining?

- We noticed that there are a variety of cohesion levels. There is the one listed after cohesion tests (Steady, Disrupted, Fragmented, and Broken) as well as others (Severely Disrupted and one other I think). We figured there are the four listed here, and a total of two others mentioned, but not on this list. Which ones do we use?

- Do you take a cohesion test and death test after every time you shoot and have melee combat? We couldnt tell, it didnt really mention it for shooting.

- Do you take a death test even if you win melee?

- We had a situation were light horses were broken in melee and ran away. He decided to pursue with his medium foot longbow. He did not have enough to catch my horse, but did have enough to contact another unit of horse. It says that you cant contact an enemy without a charge, so we halted him before running into my troops. We decided on 1MU away, but couldnt find where it said that (just seemed reasonable). How does this work?

Thanks!

Omar wrote:New round of questions after our game today. In no certain order.

- How do you improve unit cohesion? Just having a commander do it? So, if a unit is disordered early on in the game (say, from long range shooting) there is no way to improve it without a commander joining?

To raise the cohesion level of BG a commander needs to join it and for it to pass a "bolstering" CT in the JAP of a move in which it has not dropped a cohesion level. Cohesion cannot be improvrd without a commander.

- We noticed that there are a variety of cohesion levels. There is the one listed after cohesion tests (Steady, Disrupted, Fragmented, and Broken) as well as others (Severely Disrupted and one other I think). We figured there are the four listed here, and a total of two others mentioned, but not on this list. Which ones do we use?

Disorder and Severe Disorder are temporary effects caused by terrain, elephants and camels - it is not the same as cohesion and goes away as soon as the cause has been removed. Best to go back and read the section on this IMO to see the difference between this and cohesion.

- Do you take a cohesion test and death test after every time you shoot and have melee combat? We couldnt tell, it didnt really mention it for shooting.

- Do you take a death test even if you win melee?

You take a cohsion test after shooting if you receive 1 hit per 3 bases or if you lose a melee. The section on when to take a CT covers this.

You always take a Death Roll if you take hits - however, as you get +2 on it against shooting or if you don't lose a melee there aree often circumstances where it is not actually needed as you will always pass.

- We had a situation were light horses were broken in melee and ran away. He decided to pursue with his medium foot longbow. He did not have enough to catch my horse, but did have enough to contact another unit of horse. It says that you cant contact an enemy without a charge, so we halted him before running into my troops. We decided on 1MU away, but couldnt find where it said that (just seemed reasonable). How does this work?

Thanks!

A pursuit that contacts other enemy is treated as a charge.

nikgaukroger wrote:

Omar wrote:New round of questions after our game today. In no certain order.

- How do you improve unit cohesion? Just having a commander do it? So, if a unit is disordered early on in the game (say, from long range shooting) there is no way to improve it without a commander joining?

To raise the cohesion level of BG a commander needs to join it and for it to pass a "bolstering" CT in the JAP of a move in which it has not dropped a cohesion level. Cohesion cannot be improvrd without a commander.

Regarding a commander having to join a BG isn't this only required if the BG in question is in close combat? Otherwise the commander can influence any BG not in close combat but within command range? Just thought I would throw that out there as the rules confused me on this part for a while. The original question alluded to a cohesion drop due to shooting so I assumed it was not in close combat.

Brian

philqw78 wrote:Your friend is right. Only 1 base is in effective range plus the one behind, giving you 2 shooters, but Javelins only get one dice per 2 shooting bases. So only 1 dice. Normally not enough to cause a test, unless the enemy are in column. Javelins do not fire further than effective range.

However, IMO, velites are good troops for the Romans.

1. They are reasonable at clearing enemy LF, just the small unit size as a downfall, as they have an impact weapon, Light Spear, and can be protected, so will be up in melee against most other LF.

2. They are a cheap unit, this means, if you keep them out of melee with harder troops/much bigger units, the enemy has to rout more of your battle troops

3. They are good at slowing the enemy down where you want to delay. 4 bases, move quickly and easily. Get them in front of the main enemy battle line of foot and skirmish or draw his impact foot into rash charges to break up his line before your battle troops get there.

They aren't going to cause a lot of casualties by shooting, but they have more important jobs.

Sorry to be joining this thread so late but from my own experience and of comments I read on other threads as a Roman would you really want your velite to engage other LF? I ask that because as a Roman you want your line to impact your enemy's line as soon as possible and getting into a LF battle can delay this impact a number of turns. This gives your enemy, who normally (at least in my experience) has more cavalry a chance to defeat your weak cavalry and turn your flank or flanks before you defeat his main line.

I think as the Roman if you want your line to impact as soon as possible that you put your LF to the flanks and let your enemy skirmish you. In effect you lose the skirmish battle. I have read this from other players as well, but to be honest it does bother me a little as if you want to engage battle lines you will always lose the skirmish battle, kind of like playing chicken.

Brian

BrianC wrote:

To raise the cohesion level of BG a commander needs to join it and for it to pass a "bolstering" CT in the JAP of a move in which it has not dropped a cohesion level. Cohesion cannot be improvrd without a commander.

Regarding a commander having to join a BG isn't this only required if the BG in question is in close combat? Otherwise the commander can influence any BG not in close combat but within command range? Just thought I would throw that out there as the rules confused me on this part for a while. The original question alluded to a cohesion drop due to shooting so I assumed it was not in close combat.

A commander can 'influence' a BG that is not in close combat up to his command distance away but 'influence' is not the same as 'bolster'

CMTs and cohesion tests are able to be 'influenced' but in order to 'bolster' a BG the commander must be actually with the BG in question.

hammy wrote:

BrianC wrote:

To raise the cohesion level of BG a commander needs to join it and for it to pass a "bolstering" CT in the JAP of a move in which it has not dropped a cohesion level. Cohesion cannot be improvrd without a commander.

Regarding a commander having to join a BG isn't this only required if the BG in question is in close combat? Otherwise the commander can influence any BG not in close combat but within command range? Just thought I would throw that out there as the rules confused me on this part for a while. The original question alluded to a cohesion drop due to shooting so I assumed it was not in close combat.

A commander can 'influence' a BG that is not in close combat up to his command distance away but 'influence' is not the same as 'bolster'

CMTs and cohesion tests are able to be 'influenced' but in order to 'bolster' a BG the commander must be actually with the BG in question.

Thanks for the correction. I'm at work right now but did re-read the previous thread and stand corrected. I better print the results of that thread for my next game. And I know I should not be here during work but I need my FOG fix .

Brian

nikgaukroger wrote:To raise the cohesion level of BG a commander needs to join it and for it to pass a "bolstering" CT in the JAP of a move in which it has not dropped a cohesion level. Cohesion cannot be improvrd without a commander.

So, if a commander cant get to join the unit in time, nothing I can do with them? I guess letting some units take off is accurate.

Disorder and Severe Disorder are temporary effects caused by terrain, elephants and camels - it is not the same as cohesion and goes away as soon as the cause has been removed. Best to go back and read the section on this IMO to see the difference between this and cohesion.

I will review that.

You take a cohsion test after shooting if you receive 1 hit per 3 bases or if you lose a melee. The section on when to take a CT covers this.

You always take a Death Roll if you take hits - however, as you get +2 on it against shooting or if you don't lose a melee there aree often circumstances where it is not actually needed as you will always pass.

So, shooting, melee, whatever.. if you take a single hit, you make a death roll. Got it.

A pursuit that contacts other enemy is treated as a charge.

Can you point me to a page in the rulebook that covers this? We were totally unable to find it. It would also save me from asking more questions related to that charge.


Thanks!

Omar wrote:

A pursuit that contacts other enemy is treated as a charge.

Can you point me to a page in the rulebook that covers this? We were totally unable to find it. It would also save me from asking more questions related to that charge.


Thanks!

Two bits that you should look at: 1) Movement of broken troops and pursuers, starting p100; 2) Outcome moves in JAP, starting p106.

Marc

nikgaukroger wrote:A pursuit that contacts other enemy is treated as a charge.

Omar wrote:Can you point me to a page in the rulebook that covers this? We were totally unable to find it. It would also save me from asking more questions related to that charge.

Page 108, bullet 9: "If pursuers contact fresh enemy in any phase, this is treated as a charge on the contacted enemy."

Cheers,
Scott