Slitherine

Just a quick one for the hive collective whom might be able to help.

2nd ranks using the same net POAs of the first rank in cases were the 2nd rank ar MF bow (or xbow etc), does this mean they are treated as the same type as the front rank for combat or that they are still different but just have the same POAs.

I assumed the latter but am checking as one in our group inferred the former.

So for example, from the new shiny Byzantium book, Nik Byzantium HF Spear and MF bow. That there are 1/2 and 1/2 suggests 1 rank spear and 2nd rank bow. So from the question above... in the former they'd be considered 2 ranks of defensive spear, but in the latter only the 1 rank of spear and so get no spear POA factors (ie 2 ranks defensive spear) thus both ranks just fight on the net POA.



I also assume the 2nd rank of bow can shoot as nomal in the shooting phase through the 1rank of spear as 2nd ranks can shoot when 1st ranks can't.

It does seem to suggest it's pointless in defense as they get no beneficial POAs, but I suppose there is nothing to stop you having 2 ranks of spear and 2 ranks of bow behind, you'd losing the general shooting capability but would get the Defensive Spear POA and still ge to support shoot in impact. Or am I missing something?

Steve P

stenic wrote:Just a quick one for the hive collective whom might be able to help.

So for example, from the new shiny Byzantium book, Nik Byzantium HF Spear and MF bow. That there are 1/2 and 1/2 suggests 1 rank spear and 2nd rank bow. So from the question above... in the former they'd be considered 2 ranks of defensive spear, but in the latter only the 1 rank of spear and so get no spear POA factors (ie 2 ranks defensive spear) thus both ranks just fight on the net POA.

There is only 1 rank of spear, so no POA for 2 ranks of spear.

Although one rank of spear does not give you a POA, it can cancel some enemy POAs (e.g. lance in impact and swordsmen in melee).

The front rank may have other POA that are different from the 2nd rank, such as armour.

Also mounted in impact won't get a + versus HF that they would get versus MF.

The second rank then counts the same net POA as the front rank.

I also assume the 2nd rank of bow can shoot as nomal in the shooting phase through the 1rank of spear as 2nd ranks can shoot when 1st ranks can't.

Correct, the wording in the rules is "first shooting rank", which can be the second rank of the formation.

It does seem to suggest it's pointless in defense as they get no beneficial POAs, but I suppose there is nothing to stop you having 2 ranks of spear and 2 ranks of bow behind, you'd losing the general shooting capability but would get the Defensive Spear POA and still ge to support shoot in impact. Or am I missing something?

Steve P

The 1 rank spear, 1 rank bow formation is a reasonable compromise that allows you to dish out damage to shoooty cavalry/LH, and stand up reasonably well if the cavalry charge you (including lancers). These troop types are prevalent in your historical opponents' armies.

2 ranks of spear would just get shot up with no reply, 2 ranks of MF bow would get ridden down.

stenic wrote:Just a quick one for the hive collective whom might be able to help.

2nd ranks using the same net POAs of the first rank in cases were the 2nd rank ar MF bow (or xbow etc), does this mean they are treated as the same type as the front rank for combat or that they are still different but just have the same POAs.

The latter. Your second rank are bowmen but fight as if they were the front rank so could fight as spear or sword or heavy weapon

I assumed the latter but am checking as one in our group inferred the former.

You are right

So for example, from the new shiny Byzantium book, Nik Byzantium HF Spear and MF bow. That there are 1/2 and 1/2 suggests 1 rank spear and 2nd rank bow. So from the question above... in the former they'd be considered 2 ranks of defensive spear, but in the latter only the 1 rank of spear and so get no spear POA factors (ie 2 ranks defensive spear) thus both ranks just fight on the net POA.

If you have a BG of 8 deployed with 4 spear in one rank and 4 bow behind then they will not get the spear POA as there is only one rank of spear. However they will negate lancer POA and swordsman POA in just the same way as normal spear. If you deploy 4 ranks deep with two ranks of spear and two of bow then you will be 'propper' spearmen.

I also assume the 2nd rank of bow can shoot as nomal in the shooting phase through the 1rank of spear as 2nd ranks can shoot when 1st ranks can't.

Correct, the 2nd rank shoot at full effect as they are the 'first shooting rank'.

It does seem to suggest it's pointless in defense as they get no beneficial POAs, but I suppose there is nothing to stop you having 2 ranks of spear and 2 ranks of bow behind, you'd losing the general shooting capability but would get the Defensive Spear POA and still ge to support shoot in impact. Or am I missing something?

It isn't pointless, while you don't gain any POAs you do remove a significant number of POAs from your opponent.
Your front rank are HF not MF so mounted don't get a POA at impact
If steady you negate lancer
If steady you negate swordsman

I would far rather take a cavalry charge with the mixed byzantine formation than with pure bow. The formation was intended to be used against mounted opponents.

I am not sure if you would get support shooting with a third rank of bow. It is probable that you do.

another way to look at it is that the mixed formations are better multitaskers.

i run my LB in 6s, so often end up with 4 dice shooting. if they are in a mixed BG i only have 3 dice shooting, but can also stand in front of HF/mounted.

it's a bonus if you ask me. might be the only interesting thing in the burgundian ordonnance list...

Hammy wrote:I am not sure if you would get support shooting with a third rank of bow. It is probable that you do.

I've checked this in the rules and you do get support shooting with a third rank of MF bow.

(I got this wrong in my earlier post and have edited it out)

lawrenceg wrote:

Hammy wrote:I am not sure if you would get support shooting with a third rank of bow. It is probable that you do.

I've checked this in the rules and you do get support shooting with a third rank of MF bow.

(I got this wrong in my earlier post and have edited it out)

I had a feeling you did but didn't have the time to check the rules.

Thanks guys. I'd forgotten to check what POAs they negate so that isa bonus. I'll try Nike Byzantiums out tomorrow night to see how they play. It's a tad upsetting as there are just not enough points to get all the toys on the table. I've gone mounted heavy this time roun.

Steve