Slitherine

Another list writing/rules mechanism 'bug-bear' of mine (which seems to have crept across into the FoG lists/rules) are these strange mobile war wagons that seem to trundle around the table top like medieval versions of tanks.

Surely we are all (those of us who have an interest in C15th european warfare anyway) by now well enough equated with how battle or war wagons were used in reality to have got away from this crazy idea of them moving about the battle field. There is only one battle in the Hussite wars were you have armoured war wagons 'fighting' on the move & even then the deffinition of 'fighting' is very dubious.

If we look at the various armies how use versions of either custom built or adapted 'war wagons' rather than just improvised 'place' wagons you have the following armies:

Hussites
Hungarians
Ottoman Turks
Ming Chinese
Medieval Russians
Medieval Poles
Imperialist (Medieval) Germans

Other than the desperate (sucessful) dawn break-out attempt by a heavily out-numbered Hussite force at Kutna Hora (in an almost do-or-die attempt to escape the surrounding Imperialist Crusader army) - can anybody else identify another situation where war wagons were used in a mobile fashion in a medieval battle?

Thanks
Aetius

They either complain they don't move enough, or they complain they move too much. This a tough crowd...

IIRC there is something on Matt Haywood's site - http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/ - in the Hungarian bits that has them using wagons in what is at least a plausibly mobile role.

Matt's site is very interesting but I think the Hungarian example is really supposition - as is the idea that the wagons used by Zizka at Malesov & rolled down the hill to disrupt the Crusaders were not loaded supply wagons but were in fact war wagons. Personally I doubt he'd have taken the risk of using his troops one key advantage in such a risky fashion.

I've looked at Wagon Laagers for other sets of rules & I'm now increasingly of the view that they should be treated as primarily static 'troop' types - more like purchased & placable terrain than anything else.

I have it somewhere in the back of my mind that Ming War Wagons were used in a mobile fashion to disrupt enemy formations but again, I have a feeling this is 'wargamers legend' rather than being based on historical fact.

It's an interesting problem, but from chatting to traders at last weekends Derby show - war wagons in both 25/28mm & 15mm have suddenly become extremely popular! Do we have a FoG super troop here ..... ????

Cheers
Aetius

Aetius wrote:Matt's site is very interesting but I think the Hungarian example is really supposition - as is the idea that the wagons used by Zizka at Malesov & rolled down the hill to disrupt the Crusaders were not loaded supply wagons but were in fact war wagons. Personally I doubt he'd have taken the risk of using his troops one key advantage in such a risky fashion.

I've looked at Wagon Laagers for other sets of rules & I'm now increasingly of the view that they should be treated as primarily static 'troop' types - more like purchased & placable terrain than anything else.

I have it somewhere in the back of my mind that Ming War Wagons were used in a mobile fashion to disrupt enemy formations but again, I have a feeling this is 'wargamers legend' rather than being based on historical fact.

It's an interesting problem, but from chatting to traders at last weekends Derby show - war wagons in both 25/28mm & 15mm have suddenly become extremely popular! Do we have a FoG super troop here ..... ????

Cheers
Aetius

Interesting points. I, too, seem to recall reading somewhere that the Ming war wagons may have been mobile.

FoG-wise I have not faced battle wagons in my two dozen or so games. I would think that pikes or impact foot would be a real threat to them, along with artillery. Terrain slows them to a near crawl, too.

Cheers,

Dale

Terrain slows them to a near crawl

Having to pass CMT just to move makes them crawl. (Do they have to CMT after passing a CMT to do a normally complex move, e.g. contract?)

Do we have a FoG super troop here ..... ????

I've used them twice and I would say no. They failed to move a lot even with the ic close by. But did their job of clogging up a flank. A moblie terrain piece I would say.

I was hopping to see these as only fortifications in FOG, as in DB* they are absurd panzers roving the battlefield. Much as the justification for removing mounted infantry from the game - these things didn't move around once the battle started. I am sure they add a lot of nice charactor to the game though - but hey so do viking Berzerkers. I just do not believe that the horses can be limbered / unlimbered during a fight and they would be too vulnerable to be placed in any kind of ready position.

The references to the Ming / Hungarians throwing them into the enemy sounds more like a scythed chariot classificaiton, not the generally static war wagons.


Ian

Aetius wrote:
I've looked at Wagon Laagers for other sets of rules & I'm now increasingly of the view that they should be treated as primarily static 'troop' types - more like purchased & placable terrain than anything else.

I would tend to agree to be honest.

Well - I will have to consider rebasing my 28mm Hussites (from old Newbury Rules bases) to FoG basing & trying them out at a competition (although it's not an exercise I'm looking forward to!)

From my own limited FoG experiance so far - I'm actually more interested in the seperately deployed flailmen as having a reasonable number of Heavy Foot, Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Heavy Weapon armed troops, supported by war wagons with guns, a fortified camp and some nice superior lance armed cavalry might be 'fun'!

On the subject of berserkers - I thought there were so few of them that a full unit would be impossible in FoG - a bit like late Roman Egyptian Garrison camel corp or Palmyran caravan guard?

Cheers
Aetius

Hey there guys

I was having this conversation earlier today with my friend who loves Hussites and war wagons: His view point which might mean something here is that War wagons were designed to get troops from one point to another (safely) from more mobile, supplied, and better equipped opponents who loved using shock troops such as knights, etc.

FoG seems to allow for all of these factors while allowing for a well balanced army to rip apart these Panzers of the ancient battle-fields....

Good foot may destroy them. Well supported good foot will destroy them. Knights should be kept away from them. Sounds fairly historical. Once again: War wagons were a viable tactic (strategy) against aggressive knights.

Sun Tzu (spelling sorry) Stated many things: one such example loosely goes along the lines that "a gimmick may win a battle but never the war."

That is why there are many odd-ball references to desperate tactic being used to gain a temporary advantage that were UNEXPECTED but could be quickly countered for the next time. That is why some things, such as rolling down hills may seem suicide looking back: but at the time an opportunistic commander may have seen a way the to succeed BECAUSE NO-ONE WOULD EVER BE THAT STUPID.

In Han Chinese records there was an example of swordsmen catching cavalry in the pursuit. FoG allows for such things but one would hardly count it as part of their winning strategy.

War wagons should be free to move (lumber) about: their unpredictability of movement is a three-edged sword for all. Stationary war-wagons also have their own strengths and weaknesses.

My suggestion to those facing them is to practice tactics to dealing with them. This is not sarcasm: merely for example, Alexander didn't hop on a horse a crush the Greek/ Persian empires until he ate too much green soup.
He spent his life training, practising, being tutored in how to adapt to and thus beat his enemy.

Being unable to charge/ intercept (p57) nor expand/ contract in combat (p73) EVER, makes some very strong and exploitable weaknesses for the prepared....

Cheerz

I find that FOG deals with such things well having tried the poor Classical Indian war carts. These are a semi mobile flank guard and little else, just a "mobile" archery platform. Good for stopping LC around the flanks and little else.
With a CMT just to move 2" and a second to move again to fits a bullock cart very well. Might be fun to try a medieval army so equiped but I can see the other player picking and choosing what he/she attacks or leaves well alone.
Good luck anyone trying. Mike.

Anyone wishing to use battle wagons better have a really good plan. Trying anything fancy is sure to lead to heartbreak.

Hey guys

Good comments...

You guys hit the spot:

My friend does use Hussites historically with some of his own magic (isn't that what learning about historical tactics is all about): he has not played with FoG yet. But he will give it a try soon enough.

I know his strategies and they are solid. Does not mean they are unbeatable; once learnt any strategy becomes beatable.

...of course and solid plan will take into account (un)expected responses to your strategy.

another 'point': 'technically' it should be called a "thingy": as with all troops in FoG and any game there needs to be some liberal interpretation and "averaging" of the spectrum. Thus Hussite handguns get ignored and 'Classical war carts' (not just indian) MAY find themselves better than they were....

But hey, any points based, (non-historical refight: thus ultimately worth playing: YAY!!) historical game is essentially not historical!!!!

How many WWII armies use biltzkrieg tactics in early war: regardless of the nationality of the army used????

My next "thingy" is that there seems to be too much discussion upon singular unit types versus other type(s) rather than in-depth discussions about combinations.

Utimately isn't that what an army is all about: getting the best result from combining all of the desparate parts together??

Hmm!!! I sense a discusion topic coming up for the forum.....



Cheerz

I hope to find out soon as I hope my next game of FoG will be against a Hussite army played by somone who is a much better player than me. It will be an in period match up (I will not be allowed to use my Principiate Romans - Boo!). I will report back.

Hey there Timmy1

Best of luck haha!!

Watch out if your opponent uses the double line (flanks) and then re-angles into a near-closed arrowhead formation.

Tempting, but in truth it is a trap.

Be warned

I like better players, improves my game

Cheerz

I came I saw I played