Slitherine

Just playing the Third Century Crisis campaign, in one battle I have veteran legionnaires but they have the old texture with the lorica hamata and red head crest. Is this right? It looks a bit odd everyone else is in lorica segmentata and imperial helmets.

bodkin wrote:Just playing the Third Century Crisis campaign, in one battle I have veteran legionnaires but they have the old texture with the lorica hamata and red head crest. Is this right? It looks a bit odd everyone else is in lorica segmentata and imperial helmets.

This is due to there only being one Veteran Legionaries model shared by the Late Republican and Imperial armies. We could not justify making a special Veteran Legionaries model for the later period as the units only appear in campaigns.

However, Legionaries did change back to oval shields in the mid-3rd century, and the Praetorians were the first to do so, near the beginning of the century. Legionaries also switched back to lorica hamata in the later 3rd century, although the Praetorians are shown as wearing lorica squamata in the depiction of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge on the Arch of Constantine.

Unfortunately budgetary and time constraints mean that we could not represent every intermediate phase in the continuous evolution of Roman equipment.

Fair enough, thanks, I'm sure I can live with it

rbodleyscott wrote:Unfortunately budgetary and time constraints mean that we could not represent every intermediate phase in the continuous evolution of Roman equipment.

I cannot buy you time but I honestly would donate some extra bucks (via Crowdfunding if there's no other way) to see more historically correct unit models in the game. I'm missing ones for Equites Sagittarii, Cataphractarii etc., and be it just for the sake of immersion.

I hope the game sells well so that bugetary restrictions will only play a peripheral role in the future.

Adebar wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:Unfortunately budgetary and time constraints mean that we could not represent every intermediate phase in the continuous evolution of Roman equipment.

I cannot buy you time but I honestly would donate some extra bucks (via Crowdfunding if there's no other way) to see more historically correct unit models in the game. I'm missing ones for Equites Sagittarii, Cataphractarii etc., and be it just for the sake of immersion.

I hope the game sells well so that bugetary restrictions will only play a peripheral role in the future.

Artist time is actually the main consideration at the moment. We don't want to outsource if it can be avoided, because it causes all sorts of problems.

Also we are covering a very wide area of history (geographically and chronologically), and having every nation have all its troops look exactly right for each date in their history is not a realistic goal.

There is nothing to stop modders from doing it however.

rbodleyscott wrote: Also we are covering a very wide area of history (geographically and chronologically), and having every nation have all its troops look exactly right for each date in their history is not a realistic goal.

Of course not, and that's not what I've meant. No offence, the great work of your team is very much appreciated.

You're amazing, Richard. You're so responsive on these forums. I love Field of Glory, mate. Well done!

SwordOfJustice wrote:You're amazing, Richard. You're so responsive on these forums. I love Field of Glory, mate. Well done!

Thanks

rbodleyscott wrote:

bodkin wrote:Just playing the Third Century Crisis campaign, in one battle I have veteran legionnaires but they have the old texture with the lorica hamata and red head crest. Is this right? It looks a bit odd everyone else is in lorica segmentata and imperial helmets.

This is due to there only being one Veteran Legionaries model shared by the Late Republican and Imperial armies. We could not justify making a special Veteran Legionaries model for the later period as the units only appear in campaigns.

However, Legionaries did change back to oval shields in the mid-3rd century, and the Praetorians were the first to do so, near the beginning of the century. Legionaries also switched back to lorica hamata in the later 3rd century, although the Praetorians are shown as wearing lorica squamata in the depiction of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge on the Arch of Constantine.

Unfortunately budgetary and time constraints mean that we could not represent every intermediate phase in the continuous evolution of Roman equipment.

The 'regular' Imperial Legionaries already have the correct appearance, so could the same model not be used for the Veteran Legionaries as well? (They could still be identified by the tooltip.) I realise this may be a rather simplistic suggestion, as I am not that clear on how the game engine works.)

abbafan53 wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

bodkin wrote:Just playing the Third Century Crisis campaign, in one battle I have veteran legionnaires but they have the old texture with the lorica hamata and red head crest. Is this right? It looks a bit odd everyone else is in lorica segmentata and imperial helmets.

This is due to there only being one Veteran Legionaries model shared by the Late Republican and Imperial armies. We could not justify making a special Veteran Legionaries model for the later period as the units only appear in campaigns.

However, Legionaries did change back to oval shields in the mid-3rd century, and the Praetorians were the first to do so, near the beginning of the century. Legionaries also switched back to lorica hamata in the later 3rd century, although the Praetorians are shown as wearing lorica squamata in the depiction of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge on the Arch of Constantine.

Unfortunately budgetary and time constraints mean that we could not represent every intermediate phase in the continuous evolution of Roman equipment.

The 'regular' Imperial Legionaries already have the correct appearance, so could the same model not be used for the Veteran Legionaries as well? (They could still be identified by the tooltip.) I realise this may be a rather simplistic suggestion, as I am not that clear on how the game engine works.)

It could, but then it would need different textures to distinguish it from the non-Veteran sort. Currently there is no art time or budget for this, but it is ideal territory for modding.

historically, Lorica Hamata was used thorought entire Roman time period, while Segmentata was quite limited to just 50 years.. besides, Hamata was considered better armor than segmented armor, which was considered cheap "munition grade" armor.. Mail was also used by Auxilia forces, but these were usually composed of more wealthy men from barbarian clans who could afford such armor.. so having Veteran Legionaries in Hamata makes perfect sense.. skilled soldier would definitely prefer mail as it was less restrictive to movement, had better coverage and did not cause heat exhaustion.

JaM2013 wrote:historically, Lorica Hamata was used thorought entire Roman time period, while Segmentata was quite limited to just 50 years..

Longer than 50 years, probably about 3 centuries from the late C1stBC to late C3rdAD.

besides, Hamata was considered better armor than segmented armor, which was considered cheap "munition grade" armor..

Not sure I've ever seen that suggested before.

Mail was also used by Auxilia forces, but these were usually composed of more wealthy men from barbarian clans who could afford such armor..

From the time of Augustus the Auxilia were part of the regular army supplied by the state like the legions,

Mail was always "armor of status", due to its labor intensive manufacture process. It was something only rich could afford. Regarding Segmentata, there are plenty of works about it that suggest it to be not very successful type of armor, while quality wise it was found to be made of low quality iron/steel. Overall it was an attempt to give lots of armor sets to many legionaries quick, as it allowed armories to make plates in large quantities, but it failed eventually, as plates were susceptible to rust, therefore "aged" a lot faster. Mail at the other side could survive a lot longer, it was self cleaning and rust resistant (all you had to do was to put it in a bag with some sand).

Look for example at Centurions from that time.. i dont recall any depictions of centurions in Segmented plate armor. Most of the time they either used Hamata or bronze cuirasses (late 1.c BC)

Also, practically only representation of Segmented armor comes from Trajan column, which is not that accurate depiction of Roman army, especially when victory columns ( Adamclisi Tropaeum) build in Romania (where Dacian wars were actually fought) show no segmented armors at all..

and btw, Segmented armor finds were actually quite common in places where only Auxilia was garrisoned, so its absolutely not true that it was reserved only for Roman troops..

JaM2013 wrote: and btw, Segmented armor finds were actually quite common in places where only Auxilia was garrisoned, so its absolutely not true that it was reserved only for Roman troops..

The Auxilia were Roman troops but not usually Roman citizens

of course, yet there was a notion saying that Auxilia only used mail and not Segmented armor.. which is not true. Segmented armor was present in Auxilia camps, while Trajan column is not anyhow representative of its use considering Adamclisi column doesnt show a single segmented armor present ( yet it shows Manica Laminata arm protection and Squamata/Hamata body armors)

Technically speaking, oldest found Segmented plate comes from Kalkriese, which is supposed to be remnant of Teutoburg Forrest tragedy (9 AD). Yet, that piece was actually made of bronze, not iron, and its actually imposible to tell how that armor actually looked like - its a complete guesswork based on much younger finds. All other finds are a lot younger, typically from period of 50-100AD.

anyway, back to main topic - if anything, Late Veteran Legionaries would be equipped with Mail or Scale armor, usually reinforced with Manica Laminata on sword arm. Some of those men could even still use bronze/iron muscled breastplates (quite common with officers, centurions etc).. technically, Veteran legionaries should probably represent Evocati, re-enlisted veterans, therefore these men would be quite well equipped considering their previous (lengthy) military service.

Why not use the shield picture variant you already have made, to keep the rectangular shield for all the roman in this period?