Slitherine

An enemy non-skirmisher BG has some bases in the open and some bases in non-open terrain, can LF charge it?

P. 60 says that a BG entirely of LF cannot charge unbroken non-skirmishers in open terrain.

P. 135 qualifies open terrain modifiers for POAs and Cohesion Tests but not charging.

Is the charge restriction based on the situation of the target, i.e. if any part of the BG is in the open in can't be charged, or is the restriction based on the intended contact point of the charge?

Say for example a non-skirmisher BG was in the woods except for a small part that protruded into open terrain - could it be charged at all by LF, and if so, would that charge be restricted in any way?

Cheers,

Steve

It can't charge the bases in the open. It can charge the bases in terrain.

Well, that is one way of interpreting it but several players in NZ have asked me about this and I think it is not as clear as it could be hence the question

The rule quoted is not explicit about whether the restriction is based on the target BG or the target bases' situation.

Steve

PS - I'd be happy-ish with that interpretation but it leads to some follow-up question about partial contact etc.

stevoid wrote:Well, that is one way of interpreting it but several players in NZ have asked me about this and I think it is not as clear as it could be hence the question

The rule quoted is not explicit about whether the restriction is based on the target BG or the target bases' situation.

Steve

PS - I'd be happy-ish with that interpretation but it leads to some follow-up question about partial contact etc.

I think that is correct, you can contact any base in terrain. Otherwise you could be in a situation where all but one base are in the terrain and you couldn't charge it which would be silly.

Julian

The rule states:

A battle group entirely of light foot cannot charge or intercept unbroken nonskirmishers
in open terrain (even in the flank or rear).

Which means that if ANY of the target bases are entirely in the open then you can't charge them.
You could wheel and charge only those in terrain - as long as you don't end up hitting less bases than you would if you'd been allowed to charge straight ahead.
You can't reduce frontage and charge - since the only rule that allows you to do this states that you can only reduce by one base during a charge and only to avoid friends who are in the way.

Of course you could reduce frontage by up to 2 bases and charge next move.

So, basically, if a legal charge will contact only those bases in the terrain you can do it?

terrys wrote:The rule states:

A battle group entirely of light foot cannot charge or intercept unbroken nonskirmishers
in open terrain (even in the flank or rear).

Which means that if ANY of the target bases are entirely in the open then you can't charge them.
You could wheel and charge only those in terrain - as long as you don't end up hitting less bases than you would if you'd been allowed to charge straight ahead.
You can't reduce frontage and charge - since the only rule that allows you to do this states that you can only reduce by one base during a charge and only to avoid friends who are in the way.

Of course you could reduce frontage by up to 2 bases and charge next move.

Thanks Terry. Would you agree that the rule's wording is less than explicit on what constitutes in open terrain in this situation?

So as long as the bases you hit are at least partially in non-open terrain they can be contacted in the charge.

As regards needing to wheel, as a straight ahead charge (in your hypothetical case) can't actually contact bases, then wheeling to contact some bases should be legit?

Cheers,

Steve

as long as you don't end up hitting less bases than you would if you'd been allowed to charge straight ahead.

I agree with the above post. If you went straight ahead you could hit no bases so wheeling is therefore legal as you are hitting more?

(Oooooh, I've been promoted)

Congratulations Phil, I suppose this means people like me have to fetch your water now

Regarding this thread, can I ask for clarification for myself. I envision a situation where 8 bases of LF has 6 in bad terrain and 2 in good, 2 ranks deep. Opposite them is 8 bases of MF same depth and they are 1 MU away. For them to charge would I be right in saying that the file in good terrain must remain still because they cannot charge due to open terrain, but that the other files can step forward to charge? Its the stepping forward part that I am verifying. I think the way the charge rules are it is allowed because it does not say that you can't. As long as its not more than 2 MU.

Thanks

Brian

philqw78 wrote:

as long as you don't end up hitting less bases than you would if you'd been allowed to charge straight ahead.

I agree with the above post. If you went straight ahead you could hit no bases so wheeling is therefore legal as you are hitting more?

(Oooooh, I've been promoted)

Brian, I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but if you're implying that files move or can be withheld independently, I'd reply:
All files of a BG must charge. Stepping forward only occurs after you've hit the opposing BG, and bases that have not yet contacted the opposing BG are able to move forward to contact. You must step bases forward if they can reach the target and remain contiguous with the parent BG. When you launch a charge, there is no choice as to where the bases end up.

In other words, the rule means you can't charge with an LF BG vs non-skirmishers with part of the LF BG in the open, not that the part of the LF BG in the open cannot charge and must be held back.

On the other hand, if you are asking 'can a LF BG charge if the base(s) in the open can't reach the target non-skirmish BG?', then I would (overthinking here?) say it's arguable: the bases actually would have to charge, and you aren't allowed to vs. well, they didn't actually hit. Hopefully the designers will weigh in.

In general, FoG defaults to 'if it doesn't say you can, you can't.' The other way lies madness...

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the reply. I was assuming that even non movement would be considered a charge even though there is no movement of the bases. (sort of like impact foot countercharging but not moving the bases, its implied)

But if you are correct then LF would have to be more than 1 MU away to charge as the LF in open could still move foward a little, while the remainder (in non open terrain) step forward into impact? And if the LF base in the open is 1MU away then the entire BG cannot charge even though the other 3 files in non open can?

Just trying to clarify because I know this will come up in a game now that we are using skirmishers in a more active way.

Thanks

Brian

MarkSieber wrote:Brian, I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but if you're implying that files move or can be withheld independently, I'd reply:
All files of a BG must charge. Stepping forward only occurs after you've hit the opposing BG, and bases that have not yet contacted the opposing BG are able to move forward to contact. You must step bases forward if they can reach the target and remain contiguous with the parent BG. When you launch a charge, there is no choice as to where the bases end up.

In other words, the rule means you can't charge with an LF BG vs non-skirmishers with part of the LF BG in the open, not that the part of the LF BG in the open cannot charge and must be held back.

On the other hand, if you are asking 'can a LF BG charge if the base(s) in the open can't reach the target non-skirmish BG?', then I would (overthinking here?) say it's arguable: the bases actually would have to charge, and you aren't allowed to vs. well, they didn't actually hit. Hopefully the designers will weigh in.

In general, FoG defaults to 'if it doesn't say you can, you can't.' The other way lies madness...

I can't imagine this ever happening. However, assuming the two groups start parallel, the LF may wheel as they charge so the base furthest into the terrain makes the first contact. It will not matter how far apart they start. After contact is made, the files in the poor terrain step forward. Those outside the terrain do not step forward because their contact is illegal. This would be similar to a normal charge with a wheel except the reason for not stepping forward would be avoiding illegal contact and not the usual one of exceeding the 2MU step forward distance. When the BG's conform, the bases in the open are going to make contact too.

Why anyone would want to pull a stunt like this to get LF engaged in the open against troops that will beat them is open to speculation.

Those outside the terrain do not step forward because their contact is illegal.

I was seeing this the other way: all bases must step forward, so the charge itself would be illegal.

I don't have the rules with me right now but do all the bases have to step foward? I thought the rule stated that all bases that do step forward have to contact an enemy. So if you started the charge at between 1MU and 2MUs away you could step forward with the bases in the bad terrain. Can anyone confirm this and would a charge like this be valid?

Thanks

Brian

MarkSieber wrote:

Those outside the terrain do not step forward because their contact is illegal.

I was seeing this the other way: all bases must step forward, so the charge itself would be illegal.

Bases must step forward.

The only way, IMO, to do it using a wheel is like this:



The LF must have room to wheel. They are doing a legal charge because no less bases than posssible contact, there is no step forward, all enemy are in terrain.

Why you would want to I don't know

Actually your illustrated wheel is illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases fighting than you would have had if you hadn't wheeled - wheeling gives you 2 fighting straight forward (or a lesser wheel) would give you 3

The argument against that is no base would be in contact with a straight ahead move because the contact would be illegal. The wheel brings in more.

I was thinking he wheel would be in the other direction with the arrowed base on the inside corner.

illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases

But they cannot contact if they go straight forward as they would be LF contacting non-skirmishers in the open, so the wheel puts more elements in contact than without it

A wheel from the other corner would involve having to step forward which you must and can't and then reforming in the manouvre phase to be in contact[/u]

nikgaukroger wrote:Actually your illustrated wheel is illegal as in the Impact phase you will have less bases fighting than you would have had if you hadn't wheeled - wheeling gives you 2 fighting straight forward (or a lesser wheel) would give you 3

in other words, you can keep a toe in terrain to avoid being charged by lights?