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Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:53 pm
by ptje63
I have just been awarded with an initiative hero on Rondorf on my 1943 SS Panzer IVG - now with a grand total of +3.
Is there a max that would enable to reach april 45 overclassing any Russian unit still waiting?

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:43 pm
by turn4441
You could get up to +6 if you get a third and final hero with a +3 Initiative. Hopefully, you won't still be using a IVG at that point. If so, you'll need every bit of it (and more).

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:45 pm
by proline
All initiative heroes are plus 1. I assume he means he has three plus one heroes on his tank?

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:51 pm
by proline
You could upgrade the IVG to an IVJ in 1944. Initiative would be 9+3 = 12. The Russian IS-2 also has an initiative of 12. If you have more experience stars you would have a slight advantage in that battle. However, the IVJ's attack of 15 does not match the IS-2's ground defense of 26 and the IS-2's attack of 18 exceeds your defense of 17. Long story short, your Panzer IV will never be able to fight Russian heavy tanks even with an impressive +3 initiative. You could instead use it against soft targets, which might be a waste of its abilities, or upgrade it to a heavy tank such as a Panther, Tiger, or Tiger 2.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:53 pm
by turn4441
Thanks for correcting me. Typing without thinking. I believe he currently has a +2 hero, a +1 hero, and 1 hero yet to receive as Heinz Rondorf comes with a +2 initiative like Oleh Dir's +3 and Helmut Lent's +6.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:54 pm
by ptje63
Yes I meant I have a 3+ initiative hero now, 2 heroes in total, so can get another + in the future...

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:56 pm
by turn4441
P.S. So best he could expect would be a unit with +4 initiative should he get another initiative hero.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:24 pm
by proline
Ah ok that makes sense. My reasoning above still stands. Even if you get to +4 initiative, that will not "overclass" the Russian heavy tanks unless you upgrade to a heavy tank yourself. Now in general taking down tanks in tank to tank combat isn't the most cost effective way to do it compared to tank destroyers or infantry in close terrain, so people who use tanks primarily for dealing damage to soft targets still find Panzer IVs to be quite useful to 1945 thanks to their lower cap hit. However, if you upgrade to a tiger, that combined with all the initiative heroes means your tank will receive minimal damage from even the best Russian tanks, so in this particular case tank to tank combat probably is the best use of those heroes.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:00 pm
by ptje63
...which brings me to a follow-up question, surely discussed elsewhere (?): if one sticks to tanks/anti-tanks, what would be a perfect combination of heroes if one limits it to +Att, +Def or +Ini heroes. In other words: would a 3Att be better than a 2Ini (or 3Ini)? Im sure this will depend upon the unit one upgrades to and perhaps this will result in a mathematical explanation, but Im still interested to know/understand more about this... ;-)

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:09 pm
by stormbringer3
Proline told me in an earlier thread that defense heroes were the best to have on frontline combat units if the values were equal. Thus a D+3 would be better than an A+3.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:09 pm
by proline
When the game was new, initiative heroes could be anywhere from 1 to 3 same as the others. People quickly found that a +1 initiative was equivalent to about a +3 attack and that the +2 and +3 initiative heroes were far stronger than any other heroes. Hence why they were eliminated. Here's my rough ranking of the heroes, though I haven't actually worked all the math out but it seems about right:

+3D
+3A, I, +2D
+2A, D
+1A

I'd be interested to see if there are other opinions.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:47 pm
by ptje63
Ah there goes my hunt for A heroes...
So - then I guess a 2I would be preferred over 3D?

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:54 am
by captainjack
I'd prefer a 2 or 3D hero, especially for soft targets as it keeps them alive longer.
Ini for tanks and fighters is OK but for air units I'd still rather 3D as it protects against AA as well as in air to air combat.

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:44 am
by ptje63
I have one 6D infantry (in jan 1943) - currently as Kradschutzen but guess 43 Grenadiere upgrade seems likely...

Re: Number initiative heroes on German tanks

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:48 am
by captainjack
6D on exeprienced infantry in close terrain and backed with artillery will withstand almost any attack. For defence you mightbe better off with 43 infantry rather than 43 grenadiers to get the extra ammo.