Slitherine

AA TESTS


I tested every vanilla AA unit (0 experience, size 10, clear weather) by having them engage a Fighter,Tac bomber and Strat bomber (all 0Exp and 10-size) in turn, and logging the predicted kill number with ctrl-click to help us decide which to buy to get the best bangs per buck.
(note- the suppression figures were usually the same as the kill figures so to avoid clutter I haven't included them in the chart, for example a unit that kills 2 planes usually suppresses another 2 at the same time)

How to read the chart below
Example- the 12.8cmFlak40 figures are 5/4/3 which means it's predicted to kill 5x P-51H's/ 4x B-25B's/ 3x B-17G's.
The figure (3) in brackets indicates units with a range of 3, all the rest are range 2.
(Sw) indicates units that can switch to the AT role
Within each category I've listed the strongest units from the top downwards.
If members want to make comments, corrections, death threats etc please feel free..

AXIS FLAK UNITS versus P-51H/ B-25B/ B-17G
German Towed
12.8cmFlak40: 5/4/3 (3)
8.8cmFk36: 4/3/2 (3)(Sw)
2cmFlakvierling38: 2/2/1
3.7cmFk37: 2/2/1
2cmFlak38: 2/1/1
German Mobile
Sd7/1: 2/2/1
Sd7/2: 2/2/1
Mobelwagen: 2/2/1
Ostwind: 2/2/1
Wirbelwind: 2/2/1
Gepard: 2/1/1
Sd10/4: 2/1/1
-----------------------------------
Italian Towed
90/53M41C: 4/3/2 (3)(Sw)
75/46CAm34: 3/2/2 (Sw)
Breda20/65M35: 2/1/1
----------------------------------------------------------------------

ALLIED AA UNITS versus Me109G/ Ju-87D/ He111H2
AMERICAN
Towed
90mmM1A1: 3/3/2 (3)
M1 Bofors: 2/2/2
3inch M3: 2/2/2
Mobile
M15A1MGMC: 2/2/2
M16MGMC: 2/2/1
-----------------------------------
BRITISH
Towed
QF 3.7inch: 3/3/2 (3)
40mmBofors: 2/2/2
QF 3inch: 2/2/2
20mmOerlikon: 1/1/1
Mobile
CrusadAA: 2/2/2
40mmSPAA: 2/1/1
M14MGMC: 1/1/1
VickersAA: 1/1/1
------------------------------
RUSSIAN
Towed
85mm M1939: 3/2/2 (3)(Sw)
37mm M1939: 2/2/2
Mobile
YAG 10: 2/2/2
SU-11: 2/2/2
M16: 2/2/1
SU-6: 2/1/1 (3)
T-90 SPAAG: 1/1/1
---------------------
FRENCH
Towed
25mmCAmle39: 1/1/1
--------------------
POLAND
Towed
40mmWz36: 2/2/2
--------------------
BELGIUM
Towed
75mmFRC: 2/2/2
-------------------
HOLLAND
(There seems to be no Dutch AA in game)

Good analitic work. I wait for continuation.

Thanks for the chart, very helpful. I've seen posts in the past recommending Flakvierling because of the higher ROF but your chart doesn't show any difference between them and the others. All German mobile units show the same stats so what would be the best criteria to use when picking a unit?
Thanks for any opinions.

AA UNIT COSTS
I Googled and Searched for a ready-made costs chart but couldn't find one, so had to compile one myself in my usual hands-on fashion by checking out each unit as per this screenshot-



(Below: Listed top to bottom in order of cost)
(Blue=Self-propelled)

GERMAN
Wirbelwind: 313
Ostwind: 310
Mobelwagen: 300
12.8cm Fk40: 298
88cm Fk36: 274
Sd7/2: 232
Sd7/1: 206
Sd10/4: 185
Gepard: 171
2cmFlakvierling: 144
3.7cm Fk37: 137
2cm Fk38: 101
----------------------------
ITALIAN
90/53M41C: 264
75/46Cam34: 217
Breda20/65: 100
---------------------------
AMERICAN
M15A1MGMC: 247
90mmM1A1: 213
M16MGMC: 197
3inch M3: 171
M1Bofors: 136
--------------------------
BRITISH
QF 3.7inch: 208
CrusadAA: 187
QF 3inch: 171
M14 MGMC: 157
40mmSPAA: 140
40mmBofors: 136
VickersAA: 110
20mmOerlikon: 100
---------------------------
RUSSIAN
85mm M1939: 243
YAG-10: 219
SU-11: 210
M16: 197
SU-6: 183
T-90 SPAAG: 163
37mm M1939: 131
-----------------------------
FRENCH
25mm CAmle39:102
---------------------------
POLISH
40mmWz36: 136
--------------------------
BELGIAN
75FRC: 170
---------------------
HOLLAND
no Dutch AA seems to be in game

stormbringer3 wrote:Thanks for the chart, very helpful. I've seen posts in the past recommending Flakvierling because of the higher ROF but your chart doesn't show any difference between them and the others. All German mobile units show the same stats so what would be the best criteria to use when picking a unit?
Thanks for any opinions.

My earlier 'AA tests' chart in this sensational thread simply displays the ctrl-click results prediction readouts, so I presume the ROF is factored into them by the engine.
As regards some units having identical stats, there are other important factors which I left off my chart to avoid clutter, but we can have fun taking them into consideration when shopping around for which units we prefer, and how much mazooma we want to spend. (see my Costs chart)
For example self-propelled AA units are much more tactically flexible than towed jobs so we might not begrudge spending a few more pennies on them.
And some SPAA units have got decent armour, whereas towed stuff is naked and fragile.
Another factor is range, the 3 range units can cover a good chunk of sky.
And some AA is better at nailing Strat bombers; and some units have dual AA and AT capability which is yet another important buying point to consider, and some units carry more ammo than others etc.
Also, we could buy one super-duper expensive AA, or spend the same amount of cash on several smaller units sprinkled around the map, decisions decisions...

It would be much quicker to just open the equipment file in excel and sort by unit type, country, and cost columns (exactly what you did the long way).

turn4441 wrote:It would be much quicker to just open the equipment file in excel and sort by unit type, country, and cost columns (exactly what you did the long way).

I don't have Excel mate so I tried opening it with Notepad but it looked pretty jumbled and I felt a migraine coming on and had to go have a cup of hot sweet tea and relax watching a 'Women Who Kill' video.
Anyway as a test nut I LIKE testing stuff because you can't beat getting your hands on everything yourself and put it under the microscope rather than rummage through dry databases and stuff..
"I attribute my success on the battlefield to always being on the spot to see and do everything for myself"- Duke of Wellington

To each his own, but in this case, I don't think there is much 'testing' involved by simply recording fixed unit costs (as opposed to if they changed under various conditions, etc.) from one 'dry database' and then only to create a new smaller 'dry database' subset (AA unit cost) you have to 'rummage' through. At least it gave you a good excuse for tea and a video. In closing, I'd always thought that Wellington had an army with him. Amazing that he did everything himself. Sure a lot cheaper and would definitely reduce logistics/supply issues.

PoorOldSpike wrote:

turn4441 wrote:It would be much quicker to just open the equipment file in excel and sort by unit type, country, and cost columns (exactly what you did the long way).

I don't have Excel mate so I tried opening it with Notepad but it looked pretty jumbled and I felt a migraine coming on and had to go have a cup of hot sweet tea and relax watching a 'Women Who Kill' video.
Anyway as a test nut I LIKE testing stuff because you can't beat getting your hands on everything yourself and put it under the microscope rather than rummage through dry databases and stuff..
"I attribute my success on the battlefield to always being on the spot to see and do everything for myself"- Duke of Wellington

you don't need excel you can use most other programs that can display spreadsheets

you can easily open the chart in google docs which is free to use

there you don't even have to save the sheet to your pc and have access to the cloud from all kind of devices

btw it is no wonder that different german AA have the same results

the single 2 cm Flak is the same on the towed version, the SdKfz 10/4 and the Gepard
the quad 2cm Flak is the same on the towed version, the SdKfz 7/1 and the Wirbelwind
the 3,7cm Flak also available as towed version on the SdKfz 7/2 and Möbelwagen and the Ostwind
basically it's just a different set of wheels on which the gun is mounted

so it is to be expected that the same gun brings the same results when firing under clinical conditions

PoorOldSpike wrote: I don't have Excel mate so I tried opening it with Notepad but it looked pretty jumbled and I felt a migraine coming on and had to go have a cup of hot sweet tea and relax watching a 'Women Who Kill' video.
[/color][/b][/i]

You might want to break out your credit card and buy OpenOffice.
The price is $0 [freeware].
LibreOffice also works.

The equip file is in .tsv format. {tab separated value]

If you are retired and not computer literate, don't bother.
If you have years of working life ahead of you, you should learn [or know] how to use spreadsheets.

Hugh2711 and i both use spreadsheets to calculate kills in our AARs.

What does being retired have to do with computer literacy? I'm retired and have been using spreadsheets (Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro Pro, and now Excel) from MS-DOS versions to Windows since the 1980s. Working or not, I can't imagine doing without spreadsheets as I use them in numerous ways every day.

In the above chart I'm suprised that the 2cm does the same damage as a 3.7cm. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why buy a 3.7cm since they cost more? Any thoughts would be appereciated.

I don't see any sense to either of them unless you just like to play with them. In the early game there's little to worry about from enemy fighters so what's the point. Why not just get an 88 if you want a towed unit? It hits a lot harder, has a range of 3, it's switchable, and they're on the same upgrade path anyway. One SP unit is also available right away, is soon upgradable and can shoot most turns enemy air units are around instead of only occasionally. Also note that the cost per unit listed above does not include the cost of the transport for towed units.

The Russian M1939 85mm AA gun is a murderer! Two stars and it sends mein Luftwaffe zu grunt.

Thanks for the work and info.

Still prefer my 7/1 for most tasks. Buy it once and keep it. Mobile, good ROF and ammo. Once over-strength, it eats planes quite nicely.

The 88mm is also nice if on the defensive campaign path. It covers a lot and can switch into a beast of an A/T gun.

dalfrede wrote:

PoorOldSpike wrote:..If you have years of working life ahead of you, you should learn [or know] how to use spreadsheets. Hugh2711 and i both use spreadsheets to calculate kills in our AARs..

Good for you mate, problem with me is that I hate computer language with a passion because I'm just a grunt wargamer not a geek..
Anyway, game charts and data might be years out of date or wrong, or only refer to earlier game versions or whatever, whereas my hands-on tests are bang up to date, for example my AA tests in this thread are only a few days old..
PS- despite my dislike of spreadsheets I've somehow managed to top half a dozen computer wargame ladders at different clubs over the years and been a moderator at some, and I also do alright on the multiplayer servers, here's my character and some human recruits in Armed Assault III, I tell them "Stick with me if you want to live!"

auda wrote:The Russian M1939 85mm AA gun is a murderer! Two stars and it sends mein Luftwaffe zu grunt.

Right mate, you can't go wrong with the big hitters..
As a great prophet once said-
"Go big or go home"- Donald Trump

turn4441 wrote:What does being retired have to do with computer literacy? I'm retired and have been using spreadsheets (Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro Pro, and now Excel) from MS-DOS versions to Windows since the 1980s. Working or not, I can't imagine doing without spreadsheets as I use them in numerous ways every day.

When I got my first computer 30-odd years ago purely for wargaming, I signed up for a free jobcentre-sponsored computer course because everybody was tell me I was "supposed" to.
On the first day sitting there in a room full of people the tutor said "I'm going to teach you all about spreadsheets and databases", and launched into a torrent of geek-speech and I hadn't a clue what he was talking about, so I thought to myself "How will this help me to capture Moscow in 'Panzer Command'? I don't need this sh*t", so I got up and made my way to the door but he intercepted me and asked why I was leaving!
I didn't want to hurt his feelings so I said "I'm just nipping to the toilet", so he said "I'll show you where it is", and led me down the corridor, but he stood waiting outside the cubicle like a Colditz guard waiting for me to finish so I locked myself in and waited for him to bugger off!
Eventually he went back to his class and I was able to slip out and make a home run and I never went back.
Apparently he was being paid by the jobcentre according to how many people he was tutoring which is why he didn't want to lose me..

stormbringer3 wrote:In the above chart I'm suprised that the 2cm does the same damage as a 3.7cm. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why buy a 3.7cm since they cost more?

If you're talking about the German Flaks, the 3.7 definitely has an edge because it can kill 2 tac bombers compared to the 2cm's 1, look-
3.7cmFlak38: 2/2/1 (cost 137)
2cmFlak37: 2/1/1 (cost 101)
So it depends whether we want to splash out a bit more cash on the 3.7 for its better hitting power.
If we spend peanuts, we get monkeys..

PS- as I mentioned earlier I couldn't put every bit of info into my AA Units test chart or it'd be cluttered up no end, so I stuck only to predicted killing power which is the most important thing.
Of course, if anybody wants to probe deeper into units attributes they can always eyeball their ingame data, for example here's the 3.7 and 2cm for comparison, and it reveals the 3.7 has better anti-air strength and better self-defence firepower if attacked by ground units, as well as having better initiative (but carries fewer shells) so overall, spending more pennies to buy the 3.7 might be a good investment, it's up to the player..



STOP PRESS NEWS!
While triple-checking my AA test figures (below) I found something else that makes the 3.7 a better bargain than the 2cm, namely the little 2cm can't suppress Strat bombers, but the bigger 3.7 can..
With hindsight perhaps I should have included suppression figures on my earlier chart but I left them out to avoid clutter, so maybe this scan of my original notebook page will make up for it, the red dots indicate AA units that inflict '0' suppression at that height against that aircraft type.
Example- the 2cm's predicted figures are 22/11/10 which mean-
it kills 2 fighters and suppresses 2.
it kills 1 tac bomber and suppresses 1.
it kills 1 strat bomber and suppresses 0.

Incidentally the worst AA unit in the game is the Brit Vickers AA vehicle, its figures are 10/10/10 meaning its predicted to kill 1 ftr,1 tac bmbr and 1 strat bmbr, but might not suppress any of them!
(Reminder-all my tests are with vanilla units, 0 experience, no leaders, and all the results are game prediction figures (ctrl-left click) and could fluctuate during play due to random chance)

PoorOldSpike wrote: (Reminder-all my tests are with vanilla units, 0 experience, no leaders, and all the results are game prediction figures (ctrl-left click) and could fluctuate during play due to random chance)

Guess what ?

You sound like a car salesman telling me from the Booklet how low it is in Fuel Consumption and it has almost no unwanted emissions ........ under Test Conditions in a Closed Room in a Simulation of something No one is really sure about what it is, except that these Conditions never Exist


Hmmmmm thinking about it, I realize none of this Data and Arguments are relevant in Real Life Conditions, especially cause there are no new Cars delivered with Zero Mileage on the Instruments (equivalent to Experience here).

I mean anyone can do with the Game what he wants to do and Bottom Line is enjoying it.

But personally I think going back to the Plane Baiting Thread I would rather listen to the Solid Advice the user Analog Gamer gave you then to dismiss it completely not even counting in that AA and Fighter Traps basically ambush the Enemy and seldom suffer from Return Fire. Unlike Covering Fighters AA does fire on multiple Attackers in the same Round if someone dares to do it. Basically you can say Defensive Fire is a Freebie Round with that strategy and your Turn is coming up to clean out anything you want. Making your, "AA probably just kills 2 off (per shot) and is weak" Argument a very feeble one. Ever considered that a Plane can only fire Back at AA when it is directly attacking it ?

Anyone who has experienced the SpAAG pest of the later GC EAST years can refer to that, nothing is more costly in terms of Prestige than these ever nibbling 1 or 2 Plane chewing little Buggers. If you don't respect them for too long, your once mighty core bleeds Firepower and the Cost of Replacing it will stall your Progress sooner or later.

What do I want to say and be polite in the same sentence

Continue to do your researches and stats I always like Threads with Screenshots Pictures and not too cryptic Data, but one thing I learned here in my Panzer Corps Career. Always listen to the Advice of Experienced Players especially those who have seen it all more than once. You will be amazed what you can pick up to improve your game and how deep this Game is in terms of Strategy way beyond the pure Numbers. And you will be amazed how your Style of Play will evolve in terms of Effectiveness once you get a grip on the Hidden Qualities even from the Units you never buy, use or never seem to get working. And NEVER EVER think you can dish out the Absolute Truth or Ultimate wisdom

I mean we are all on a path here and not even the Absolute Best Players have finished it even though I as a mere mortal Player seem to think so all the Time when I see the Accomplishments and Things they do regularly.