Slitherine

Greetings all,

In my wandering through this and other PC forums, it seems that the consensus is that the Recon can be somewhat superfluous. Now this is not to say that all opinions are against its use. However, since I have used them religiously since PG1, I thought it may warrant a little passage on how I use them.


My 8Rads are cheap. I mean dirt cheap. In-battle elite replacements are the least painful out there. Anything they do(and survive lol) earns them XP. Once they scale up, they do better and survive longer. I use one for each of my two main forces, for multiple reasons.

The most important attribute is Phased Movement. I never burn more than 50% of their movement into the unknown. Sneak, peek, and scurry on home. The now-exposed area can be filled with armor/inf/aaa/etc. with the Recon now behind the main force again.

Objective taking is another primary forte. It is better to use part of a phase to take an now-empty city, rather than use a combat unit's entire movement. This keeps the combat force from getting strung out. They can move on as one. This phased movement can also be used to bait traps. Take a city then phase back out. A highly-entrenched adjacent enemy unit will move into the hex(giving up all entrenchment), and be obliterated next turn instead of pried out like a tick. Gamey or Soviet defensive behavior? You be the judge.

Mop-up operations are much less tedious when a pair of Recons are on the field. The enemy can neither run nor hide from the wrath of the Recon. Why waddle armor around chasing down that 3-strength unit? Sending a Tac bomber would do the trick, but they have better things to do.

By not including Recons in one's OOB, one does not experience what happens when they live... and learn. Recon heroes can turn them into some very useful units.

My third Recon usually gets added somewhere in Russia. They get powerful later on. No weakened unit can withstand them. Move up... blap... move away.

The Recon is NOT to be used as the "Ham in the sandwich". Its movement phase should always end at or behind friendly lines. Just because they are cheap, doesn't mean that you should be buying new ones every battle. A 5-star, 13-strength late-game Recon is The Fixer. He can make all the little behind-the-lines problems go away. And do it on the rebound from scouting new territory.

Would like to see how many others have postive experiences with, and/or always include, Recons in their forces.

Thanks for your attention.

I really like my recon unit for all the reasons you mentioned. The kill count on mine is quite high. It gives me great satisfaction when my "lowly" recon unit kills a 1-2 strength KV. I've been thinking of adding additional recon and now Ithink I will.
Thanks for your post.

I have 1 recon with 4 stars and +1 Spotting Hero in the end of 1943. He is quite nice to have around.

My favorite way to use him, besides the recon role, is to use them to help surround suppressed units to force surrender.

Nice to see that others use our little friend.

My standard offensive force is 2x inf(of various types), 2x armor, 2x art and a recon. Whatever bridging, air cover, or AAA is situationally dependent. This gives me a pair of core strike groups early, and three later on in the campaign. That single recon with each thrust does all the jack-of-all-trades jobs that string your force out otherwise. Being able to be more than one place in each turn can be invaluable.

Try seven turns or so of multi-city attacks, both with and without a Recon along with your usual suspects. See how much tighter your combat formation stays over time.

Some folks may not like "burning" a precious "Core" slot on such a seemingly peasant-like unit. But when you can bring a useful unit back from the dead, on the field, with elite replacements, without breaking the bank... it becomes clear. Unlike many other high-end units... anything less than destruction and it comes back to life right then and there.

Agree with all the uses mentioned so far. One other use: jack up massive attack bonuses.

The recon is a good example of how a unit type can be valuable if used appropriately.

AnalogGamer wrote:My 8Rads are cheap. I mean dirt cheap. In-battle elite replacements are the least painful out there.

The trouble is, playing PzC at the higher difficulty levels means being constantly strapped for cash. When you are playing at the highest level you can, you won't have any cash left to spend on a unit that provides so little value. Even if your recon repairs or replacements cost just 100 bucks a scenario, after six scenarios you just wasted a Tiger. After the last 3 years on the eastern front you wasted 5 Tigers. That's massive.

AnalogGamer wrote:The most important attribute is Phased Movement. I never burn more than 50% of their movement into the unknown. Sneak, peek, and scurry on home. The now-exposed area can be filled with armor/inf/aaa/etc. with the Recon now behind the main force again.

Yeah, that's the only way to use them. However, the recon unit usually ends up moving 4 hexes out, 3 hexes back. You can effectively avoid traps in that area by moving whatever tank happens to get a +1 spotting hero to the furthest hex you can see. If there's nothing, move your other tanks past it. If there's an army ahead, move your tanks up against them and bring up the support.

AnalogGamer wrote:Objective taking is another primary forte. It is better to use part of a phase to take an now-empty city, rather than use a combat unit's entire movement.

There's always a weakened 1 or 2 point unit somewhere that you can use for objective taking. Unless of course you bring all your units back to strength during the scenario, in which case you aren't taking advantage of the replacement discount between scenarios and aren't playing to your full potential.

AnalogGamer wrote:Mop-up operations are much less tedious when a pair of Recons are on the field. The enemy can neither run nor hide from the wrath of the Recon. Why waddle armor around chasing down that 3-strength unit? Sending a Tac bomber would do the trick, but they have better things to do.

"You can mop-up with it!" is the defense of any otherwise useless unit. The thing is, recon doesn't have any ability that makes it good at moping. Any other unit can mop just as well, and also be useful in battle. Even transports can mop. You want a unit that actually mops well, try a Flamm. Their high RoF and ignore entrenchment makes them especially good mops, and they do lots of other stuff well too.

AnalogGamer wrote:By not including Recons in one's OOB, one does not experience what happens when they live... and learn. Recon heroes can turn them into some very useful units.

I've tried playing with recon. It may be time for you to try without, and see how you do after a campaign. Having one more combat unit on the field makes a big difference, as does ending the slow drip of prestige from all the damage they take and/or not having to constantly protect a fragile unit. Because the attacks in PzC are scripted, you pretty much remember all the recon you need, and as I said, your 2-4 +1 spotting tanks will serve you well.

The big issue for me is not how much they get damaged as they are indeed cheap replacements.

It's to losing them entirely from a one or two hit mistake.

Armchair dev fix:
Give them them the normal 1x stat gain, from the 0.5x now, for experience levels and raise their price a bit.

Great discussion. Thanks for joining in.

Very good points Proline. I have gone numerous campaigns using no Recons, just to see what happens. Not my cup of tea personally. My forces end up strung out and battered more than they need to be; or I am too slow/cautious for reliable DVs. It DOES allow for greater alpha strike and sustained attack by taking combat over recon, no question. I rarely have low-strength combat units on the field to be used for mop-up operations... because my Recons prevent ambushes and ill-considered attacks. There have been times in my PG/PzC career that I have memorized enemy positions more or less, but I like long breaks to keep that fuzzy. Plus I am getting ready to purchase the grand campaign and have never seen any of that. Will need much Recon then. SHIFT/CTRL/ALT/C "fog of war" is not my cup of tea. Neither is watching my force get wiped out.

I do use in-battle replacements, but sparingly and according to specific tactical needs and situations. I keep a prestige cushion by usually limiting over-strength to no more than +1 during deployment for most of the campaign, so if I absolutely have to get a unit in shape for another attack... I can. If a Tiger gets blapped down to 2, well he stays there. If a combat unit is at 6-7, I will use regular replacements and eat some XP to get into full fighting trim, if that unit is needed right then. It is a subjective matter of play style and use of higher difficulty levels where we part ways my friend. I use custom settings that give the enemy 11 strength units, and more prestige, while I get less, but not the full field marshal level settings that keep me broke. My budget gets tight at times, but I can do what needs to be done for my men in the field. The prestige I need, but not all that I want.

I play to the campaign tree and my own rusty abilities. So if I need a unit revived to get a DV... it happens. My Recons help keep my men out of trouble, and help sweep up my messes brought on by inebriation or inattention. I play it as a game but take the lives of my pixelated troopers seriously. Dichotomy 101.

Hukc - I hear ya. Nothing evaporates like a Recon. Especially early tech, low-xp ones. I play them from mental muscle memory now, so they rarely die early. Once you reach '43, any experienced Recons can get upgraded to do actual damage. A 5-star, 11-strength, +1 movement, 234/8Rad is a pit viper in the USA. They can strike and fade.

I liken Recons to SP A/T. A long-term investment that needs nurturing at first, so that it may be upgraded with experience later. Not many people carry around those pitiful Pz1 variants, but everyone wants a JagdPanther.

The biggest risk is being seen early in the enemy turn, with no better fish to fry. Then it's a smoking hole in the ground. It will be waiting at the deployment screen in "reform" mode.

My preference for the lowly Recon is also partially based on American tactical doctrine since the end of WW2. If you can see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it. Being able to get the tactical picture without alerting the enemy AI is crucial to keeping the "circle of doom" from being built before you can get up to the target objective.

Those who have played through the campaigns enough have no need of Recons for the usual duties. These individuals know where everything is. Combat power is the order of the day as one uses higher difficulty levels to increase the challenge. My thoughts are for those who play more casually, or are learning new DLC sections.

One Recon for each column and a rover is very nice.

Your play style and mine are very similar.

I like the 8 rad, especially in Afrika Korps and often use the Sahariana or LRDG units (initially as recon and later as hit and run combat units). Most other recon is either road-only or not fast enough, upgrade paths are a bit rubbish and the experience improvements aren't very helpful. +1.5 or +2 per star on D and +1 on ini would help them in their work without making them excessively powerful.

Usually by late 1940 or 1941 I'd have enough spotting heroes to dispense with recon except for special jobs (eg mine hunting) where exeprience is largely irrelevant so you can just buy a new one each time.

Good point. I neglected to mention in my post that not all recon are useless. The LRDG and Sahariana are wonderful, as is the Russian car that won't die. All the rest are rubbish though.

Willy's Jeep, SA=9, GD=10, Soft Target.

Hunts and eats 88s for lunch.

Stands up to a Panther better than a Sherman.
If the Panther stops on a forest hex to attack Wiily, a ranger will do more damage to the Panther than the Panther did to the Jeep.
Tank Trap!

It is not purchasable without a mod.


Kradschützen as an infantry soft target can park in close terrain.
With reconmove mod works well as recon replacement.

AnalogGamer wrote:..Objective taking is another primary forte..

Yes, in fact anything with a flag in it is fair game because even if its not a 100-point full-blown objective it'll still net you 50 points for your piggy bank.
If a Recon is loose in the enemy's rear areas there are rich pickings for the taking because the AI often doesn't garrison every flag hex and you can just walk in unopposed; airfields are especially worth taking to deny him their use hehe.
And if you're playing against a human player he might not have enough units to garrison every flag hex, and even if he does have enough, it'll be a serious drain on his frontline units if he has to pull some of them out of the line to do rear area garrison duty.
Maybe the best defence against a recon unit that's running riot in your rear areas is to have a couple of recon units of your own to chase him down?..

I'm curious as to how recon movement works. It seems that I can move up to 4 "pulses" if I move 1 hex at a time but I cover a lot less territory on the map than if I use its' movement in a 1-2 movement pulse. Also, recon can fight and still move. How many of its' movement points does the combat consume?
Thanks for any help.

The take an idiotic penalty of 1 move every time they stop. Most of them have a move budget of 8. So if you go 4 hexes and stop, then you can move 3 more. Move one at stop and now you're down to 1 movement remaining. So the most moves you can make in a turn is 4: 1+1+1+2. However, that wouldn't take you very far. You could also do 1+1+4, 1+2+1+1, 1+2+1+1, 1+3+2, 1+2+3, etc.

The recon move penalty is an unfortunate addition to the game. It solves the non-existent problem of recon move being overpowered by making recon units a lot worse at recon. Their recon move was supposed o provide them with enough mobility to get out of harm's way, but thanks to the penalty it is difficult to get useful intel without risking harm. And that harm consists of a one-shot kill from anything that comes out in 1943 or later.

Thanks for the explanation.

proline wrote:The take an idiotic penalty of 1 move every time they stop. Most of them have a move budget of 8. So if you go 4 hexes and stop, then you can move 3 more. Move one at stop and now you're down to 1 movement remaining. So the most moves you can make in a turn is 4: 1+1+1+2. However, that wouldn't take you very far. You could also do 1+1+4, 1+2+1+1, 1+2+1+1, 1+3+2, 1+2+3, etc.

The recon move penalty is an unfortunate addition to the game. It solves the non-existent problem of recon move being overpowered by making recon units a lot worse at recon. Their recon move was supposed o provide them with enough mobility to get out of harm's way, but thanks to the penalty it is difficult to get useful intel without risking harm. And that harm consists of a one-shot kill from anything that comes out in 1943 or later.

Good reason.
May be move 10 for Recon can be solve a problem ?

I agree the recon move penalty is very bad for recon, especially for wheeled recon off road.
I'd like to see it removed for recon but still applied for other vehicles with recon move (this then gives recon an advantage).

As a practical solution, you can either increase spotting from 3 to 4 or increase the base move for recon. I think adding 2 move to recon vehicles over standard equivalents would probably be a better option - so a recon class Panzer 2 would be 2 faster than a tank class Panzer 2. If nothing else, I'd like to think wheeled recon should move faster than a wheeled truck full of troops or towing guns.

I always thought the movement penalty was a tad out of line as well. Increasing the range to 10 would be ideal.

Is there a way to do this? How difficult would it be to make this one-tweak mini-mod?

Possibly insert two +1 movement heroes.

Changing move to 10 is a trivial change in the equipment file, I just prefer to keep things as close as possible to the way the game was designed, otherwise it gets hard to compare my experiences with other people. A move of 8, factoring in one penalty means a move of 7, which is only slightly more than most heavy tanks. Dedicated recon units in WW2 were definitely much better at recon than tanks.