Slitherine

This one arrived in my Inbox. Thought it had been answered somewhere but couldn't find it so here we go:

Can you please advise me about the disguised rowers as Hoplites under these rules(in Immortal Fire). It says (page 39) "it is permissable to depict the disguised rowers by using Hoplites. If this is done, their true nature need not be disclosed until they are shot at or engaged in close combat."
Therefore, what do I declare to my opponent what they are? I assume they should count as citizen hoplites. What EXACTLY do I tell my opponent when placing them on the table. As rowers are not offensive spearmen or protected.

There are several types of hoplites in the list but only the citizen hoplites are undrilled. I think it would be perfectly legitimate to declare them to be average or poor, protected citizen hoplites until your opponent shoots or enters in combat with them. The fact that they are in reality unprotected doesn't come into it as that was part of the subterfuge.

You could possibly describe them as Campanian/Etruscan, Tyrant or mercenary hoplites but you would have to be very careful not to move them as drilled. As soon as you tried moving without a general within 6 inches of the enemy you would have to take a CMT which would unmask them as lilly-livered sailors rather than the cream of Greek manhood. Same applies to any fancy manoeuvres which are automatic for drilled.

Julian

IIRC the thread ran for a while and wasn't really answered then either, or I lost interest?

I would have thought you would declare them as 'default' hoplites - so citizens.
what else could you do? Am I missing something dark and devious?
maybe errata to - declare as ccitizen hoplites for those who have cunning wheezes

Do I take it that, unusually, the writers don't have an answer/opinion?

I believe the person who asked the question is thinking of running this army in a comp and so an answer would be useful.

My opinion is that they can be declared as either citizen OR mercenary hoplites. The decision could well be determined by the choices already made - i.e. you wouldn't choose to say they're citizen hoplites if you've already chosen 24 of them.

Care would then have to be taken to:
a) Not move or take CMTs for them as regulars.
b) If you do take a test - you should still re-roll 6's (what a give-away)
c) Not count them as rear support for other non-poor units.

Other than that - disguise away !!!!!

At what point would the disguised troops be revealed?

Paul

pbrandon wrote:At what point would the disguised troops be revealed?

As specified in the army list, though things will start to look a bit fishy if they have to take CMTs that their "pretend" type would not need to take.

My question wasn't clear enough. If you put the troops on the table "disguised" stating them to be one thing, at what point do you reveal that they are in fact something else?

Paul

pbrandon wrote:My question wasn't clear enough. If you put the troops on the table "disguised" stating them to be one thing, at what point do you reveal that they are in fact something else?

Paul

As specified in the army list. In the case of the Syracusan rowers it says "their true nature need not be disclosed until they are shot at or engaged in close combat".

Unfortunately I haven't got the list books with me, but, there are some women and children in one of the Ottoman book armies that are disguised as warriors. Do they get the same courtesy?

And surely the rowers should be revealed as soon as they have to CMT or CT also, as they could move around and test like drilled average troops until shot/attacked/testing for generals lost or friends routed

For the purposes of the game, does it matter if the disguised troops get a bonus by testing or moving as something better than they are? It would be so much easier than having to check each time whether to re-roll 6's or if the CMT was 7 or 8.

Poor troops being used to support better quality troops and having low risk of being shot at or in combat would be a fairly large gain. However, I could live with that. Some lists get better combinations than others. this would be little different.

Phil is seeking official rules for "disguised" troops, but no such rules exist in the rules per se.

The word "disguised" does not have any specific meaning under the rules, except as stated an individual army list.

"Disguised" troops have to obey the rules for their actual type as specified in the army list. They don't acquire the training/quality characteristics of their "pretend" type. Hence if they have to test when their "pretend" type doesn't, or use different modifiers, it would give the game away but they don't have to be revealed if your opponent fails to spot the discrepancy. This does not, however, give licence to "cheat" by using the characteristics of their "pretend" type for CMT/CTs. They must behave (and take tests) as their true type throughout.

Note that as Mob can have 8 figures on a base, 1 (Mob) base of disguised rowers can pretend to be 2 double-based bases of hoplites. No actual substitution of bases is required at any stage, nor is any such substitution mentioned in the army list.

For the purposes of the game, does it matter if the disguised troops get a bonus by testing or moving as something better than they are?

Well I would be quite miffed if, when playing them, they gave rear support to average troops and then after giving that support moved away as if drilled (right turn move and move agian with general outside 6mu) to give support somewhere else. And if I finally broke someone close to them, as my troops wouldn't get close to them because of their speed, they tested as if average

Almost free, fast moving rear support.

Slave families in the revolting list have to at least pay to be average and move more slowly (considering CMT's).

But then you could pick and choose when they were disguised. "They need to move 4mu now that they have turned so I'll declare them as the mob they are."