Slitherine

Hi there,

Just got a copy of the rules this week and played first game of ancients in a long while.

Couple of silly questions that are probably in the rules if I read them properly but

1. Unit A (LF) interpenetrates Unit B (HF). Can the HF then move off in the same movement phase?

2. Unit A (a pike phalanx) has another friendly pike phalanx adjacent on its left. Elephants in front rout. Can the phalanx charge the unit to its right using the hole created by the elephant?

So we have

PPPP PPPP
TTTTT EE PPPP

Where EE is the now dead elephants and TTTT are a unit of Thracian MF the pike wish to charge. Can they do so? Or are they prevented from this by not being able to wheel towards TTTTT due to the presence of an adjacent unit into whom the phalanx's rear would precess? If not, do the Thracians and Pike fight as overlaps since they are in corner to corner contact?

3. Does the 2-4 bits of terrain include the compulsory and any village/stream/coast or is it in addition?

Can probably make guesses about all of these, but they would be based on 6th/7th/DBM and would prefer to play the rules the right way.

Thanks

John

1. Yes
3. You must take one compulsory, then from 2 to 4 others of whatever legal shape, type, size, etc that you wish, providing there are enough in the list. In effect the Compulsory is in addition.
2. Its early, which way is everything facing, which one is A?

Sorry, the converter squashed out some spaces.

Phalanx A and Phalanx B are adjacent and facing forward. Phalanx B is still fighting an enemy phalanx. Phalanx A's opponents have routed. The Thracians were an overlap on the combat and are now in a bit of a mess and not in a position to charge themselves.

So it is Gap - Phalanx A - Phalanx B on one side (Side X)

vs Thracians - Gap - Enemy Phalanx on the other (Side Y)

Rout happened in the melee phase of Side Y, and we are now in the Impact Phase of Side X and deciding if they can swing directly into either of their opponents through the Gap created by the rout of their melee opponents.

So, can Phalanx A hit the Thracians, and if so is it a frontal charge or a flank charge (think it can't be a flank charge since not starting behind the front, but not 100% sure)

And, could they hit the enemey phalanx, which would have to be a flank contact, even if not necessarily a flank charge. This would be easier if I took a picture at the time wouldn't it

Thanks

John

It is generally much easier if you take photos, alternatively if you want to use ASCII to do diagrams then once you have put the diagram in you can highlight it and click the code button which will preserve the fixed space font.

Taking your initial diagram then you get this:


Which makes it look like the Pike are facing the Pikes in which case they would be more limited.

If the pike broke the elephants they would have to pursue so you may have not quite been in the right situation

If the situation was really:

The there is nothing to stop the pike opposite the gap charging the other pike but even if they hit the edge of the enemy pike it will still be treated as a frontal charge. If just the pike facing the gap charge then when it comes to conforming they will conform into frontal contact with the other pike.

If both pike charge then the pike opposite the gap will conform to overlap. You won't get any more dice as a result of doing this as the number of bases fighting at impact is based on the side with the lesser number of bases in contact.

If the enemy pike are already fighting your pike then you can't charge the edge fo the first two ranks of their BG but can charge third or subsequent rank, this will however just count as a frontal charge with both sides counting the full value for all their ranks and the charging pike would vonform to overlap.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks for that, and thanks for the tip about the code.

Think you're right about missing out the pursuit.

The combat was an ongoing one, so Phalanx B and the enemy phalanx are already in melee, and Phalanx A can count as an overlap already on the enemy phalanx. My question is more about how squashed in the pikes are for charging the thracians to their right (left on the diagram, but the right of Phalanx A). Their wheel on their right corner would bring their rear into contact with Phalanx B since everyone is shoulder to shoulder. Is that a problem? I would think not if you can charge the back two ranks of the phalanx, since there is only a two base gap for the two base gap wide Phalanx A to move into. Should definitely have taken a picture

The situation must be quite common though, two lines clash, a unit in the middle runs away, can people swing into flanks that are only as wide as they are?

John

OK,

There are two rules you need to look at, one is shifts on P45 where a BG can move sideways upto half a base width to avoid 'cliping' friends. This would allow the pike to move out of this possition and face the Thracians.

The other is formation changes when charging on P54 where the pike can drop a file back to pass friendly troops. You could wheel the pike, drop a file back, hit the Thracians and then expand in the movement phase (feeding in more bases) to fight on the full frontage.

A lot of players with a DBM background ignore the back of a BG when wheeling out of a line. I used to do that but now having noticed that the DBM rule that allowed this is not apparent in FoG I am using shifts and contractions to get a similar effect.

If the phalnx had pursued into the gap then, since the Thracians were not fighting to their front, the phalanx could turn 90 degrees in their manouver phase and contact the Thracians. This would not, howver, be a charge and would not disrupt the Thracians. They would simple turn 90 as well. If the phalnx stayed in position they could, IMO, charge the front of the Thracians. They would shift as they wheeled giving a contact something like:

philqw78 wrote:If the phalnx had pursued into the gap then, since the Thracians were not fighting to their front, the phalanx could turn 90 degrees in their manouver phase and contact the Thracians. This would not, howver, be a charge and would not disrupt the Thracians. They would simple turn 90 as well. If the phalnx stayed in position they could, IMO, charge the front of the Thracians. They would shift as they wheeled giving a contact something like:

Strictly you can't shift in a charge Phil. See my previous post.

I've obviously had the wool pulled over my eyes by some shifty people

philqw78 wrote:I've obviously had the wool pulled over my eyes by some shifty people

Actually I think a lot of people are still playing wheeling out of line like you did in DBM. Interestingly the rule that allows this in DBM (part of the design philosophy) is not in the DBMM rules and it took me over a year to notice it wasn't there. The lack of this rule makes for some interesting changes to the game.

Thanks for the replies, they have clarified a lot.

So, presumably charging the thracians is easier than charging the back two files of the enemy phalanx, since both of the formation changes (the shift and the dropping back bases) are only allowed to avoid friends. If the pike wheels to it's right it needs to avoid the friendly phalanx on its left, but to wheel to the left and charge it needs to avoid the Thracians, who aren't friends at all.

Is this right?

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but it is likely to be a fairly common situation and want to understand what the rules say as opposed to hazy memories of 6th, 7th or DBM

John

jcmedhurst wrote:Thanks for the replies, they have clarified a lot.

So, presumably charging the thracians is easier than charging the back two files of the enemy phalanx, since both of the formation changes (the shift and the dropping back bases) are only allowed to avoid friends. If the pike wheels to it's right it needs to avoid the friendly phalanx on its left, but to wheel to the left and charge it needs to avoid the Thracians, who aren't friends at all.

Is this right?

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but it is likely to be a fairly common situation and want to understand what the rules say as opposed to hazy memories of 6th, 7th or DBM

John

If the gap is only as wide as the pike then charging in at an angle to hit the thrid rank is IMO impossible. You could of course just advance and fight as an overlap, you don't get an impact phase but then that means you can't embarass yourself by losing it an having your plike go disrupted.

OK, that sounds sensible.

And presumably if one has pursued, then it is quite possible that you will be sandwiched in the gap and restricted to fighting as an overlap unless you do some quite complicated manouevring.

The hitting the back elements was based on the earlier reply that:

"If the enemy pike are already fighting your pike then you can't charge the edge fo the first two ranks of their BG but can charge third or subsequent rank, this will however just count as a frontal charge with both sides counting the full value for all their ranks and the charging pike would vonform to overlap. "

John

If you are sandwiched in the gap you can turn, but not on to the flank of an Enemy BG that you could provide overlap dice against. So since the Thracians have no frontal opponents you are not providing dice against them so you can turn onto their flank in the movement phase.

philqw78 wrote:If you are sandwiched in the gap you can turn, but not on to the flank of an Enemy BG that you could provide overlap dice against. So since the Thracians have no frontal opponents you are not providing dice against them so you can turn onto their flank in the movement phase.

True but in order to do this you have to start in edge to edge contact. In the example above there was no such edge to edge contact although had the pike pursued the elephants (like they should) then there probably would have been and the pike (if it was their turn next) could have turned and engaged the Thracians in melee.