Slitherine

All,

I am finding the AI uses dozens of Javelin units (foot and mounted) which dominate every battle. Seemingly unlimited ammo and impossible to catch as they evade any attempt to contact them, they annihilate regular infantry. Then if you do occasionally catch them, they are a match for any kind of infantry and even cavalry, and either win or hold firm for multiple moves. Then if they 'fall back', you're back to chasing them. Any suggestions on how to handle this?

I've also been surprised how well javelin units hold up in melee against heavier units in open ground.

Yes - I have lost count of the times that they and even slingers defeat charging infantry and match or beat even heavy infantry and cavalry.

True, light infantry is quite effective in melee..considering they typically didnt even carried any melee weapons.. anyway, regarding ammo - they only have 5 turns of ammo. after that, they are on limited supply which reduces their effectivity

I have a campaign going Spain vs Numidia/Moors and it's all about fighting javalin teams and light horse with my regular infantry, half dozen of my own jav teams and a few cavalry. Amazingly I can beat them. Those little javelin teams and Light horse get crushed easily once caught. But oddly I did a battle once using a standard Roman army when I first started playing FOG2 against a javelin army and I lost... just barely lost but lost.

Problem with Romans is many people dont take as many light units, as they are supposed to.. after almost 1/3 of legion were light troops.. Velites are a must.

Ya those velites are absolutely vital for the Roman army to survive.
I'm continuing my Spain campaign, and the javelin teams on both sides are being shredded and routed one after another.

Javelin armies have every right to be viable just like your favourite roman army which everyone seems to play 24/7 just saying.

My spain vs moor campaign now is a protect baggage wagons and it is a very shoddy affair. The javelin teams and LC are chewing up my thin defense fanning out around the wagons. Problem is they routed some of my javelin teams and my regular infantry and cav are getting drawn very far away from the wagons by the constant evasion of the badguys. I got the wagons moving though so it will be close. I don't think I have enough boots on the ground in front of the wagons cause of the numerous badguys swarming out of the forest on the flanks.

JaM2013 wrote:Problem with Romans is many people dont take as many light units, as they are supposed to.. after almost 1/3 of legion were light troops.. Velites are a must.

Up until the velites ceased to exist, after which Roman armies usually included very few light troops - and given their performance they don't seem to have missed them

For battle the Romans might not have needed as many light troops, most probably one of the reason they changed the way it worked.

The most use of the light troops was as special forces to give your army strategical advantages over your opponent with capturing and holding important terrain and acting as an advance vanguard force with cavalry formations. The Romans used mercenary light troops but more importantly their regular troops were trained to operate as special forces as needed and they pealed of soldiers from their cohorts to form lighter formations as needed. The Romans were a formidable army and extremely flexible and adaptable.

During battles they would usually not need their regular troops as light troops as much since they had mercenary light troops to perform the more traditional harassing of enemy troops in enough quantity.

I generally don't find it very problematic to deal with light troops. You can draw them in and first charge them with a light unit and then with formed troops or charge them with light horse and then cavalry, this will tend to break them and hinder them doing much damage with their missile weapons. If the enemy outnumber you in the light unit department then have your light units interspersed in your heavy infantry or cavalry lines and charge with them together.

nikgaukroger wrote:

JaM2013 wrote:Problem with Romans is many people dont take as many light units, as they are supposed to.. after almost 1/3 of legion were light troops.. Velites are a must.

Up until the velites ceased to exist, after which Roman armies usually included very few light troops - and given their performance they don't seem to have missed them

actually, light infantry duties were still fulfilled by legionaries. Caesar mention multiple times legionaries fighting in open order (antesignani) without their heavy armor equipped with lighter shields and javelins.. anyway they also delegated the role to auxiliary forces, either mercenary or allied (Gallic tribes)

The role of the antesignani is a lot less certain than you make out - most is speculation on what is meant by the term and what it meant in terms of a battlefield role as the record is vague. The word, after all, just means those in front of the "banners" (if you'll excuse that bit of translation). IIRC the leaving aside of armour is based on 2 carvings from an armour at Mainz and is, again, an interpretation - and it does not follow that because they do not have the heavy armour that they were fighting in open order; in the C3rd there is at least one account of legionarii fighting without their armour in a civil war where there is no suggestion that they were fighting in anything other than their normal manner for example. (Apologies if the Mainz thing is wrong, I'm sure you'll correct me if I am).

I am desperately trying to recall another word used by Caesar that has been used to suggest legionarii acting as light infantry but it is evading me at the moment. However, it basically just means that they were not carrying their usual "impedimetia" i.e. the baggage they normally carried as part of being "Marius' mules". They were, therefore, just troops ready to fight at a moments notice rather than fulfilling a separate function.

In fact, I do sometimes wonder if the suggestion that antesignani are skirmishing is a solution looking for a problem. There is some sort of expectation that skirmishing infantry must exists so these must be they. But that is just me pondering.

After the suppression of the velites the Romans certainly did hire skirmishing type infantry, however, as mentioned above they were in far smaller numbers than the numbers of velites previously fielded. Those in Caesar's army, for example, appear to have numbered around 2000 if memory serves.

Of course I have not mentioned the lanciarii of the C3rd - but again their role is unclear, but as a monument at Apamea shows one with multiple javelins it is likely they had some sort of skirmishing function.

But how many a legio had is not known with any certainty to my knowledge.

Oh, and I just recall that Tacitus mentions leves armaturae auxilia a couple of times - which presumably means auxilia operating without their armour, so it could be speculated that these were skirmishing.

So the Roman army never went without skirmishing foot (which has not been claimed), but I would suggest that they never again used as many as when close to a third of the legionarii were velites

I would presume that Antisignani where primarily used as make shift forces for tasks outside actual battlefield duties. Sent off on long range patrols, securing terrain, vanguard duties etc. I doubt they were used as traditional skirmishers in battle because I really can't see much reason for doing so. Sure they might have been part of a vanguard force tasked with securing a vital field position but they would surely still fight in close order if attacked by enemy forces while defending said position, perhaps more like medium foot in game terms.

I also don't think the class of heavy and medium foot would always be so rigid as it is in the game. Certain rather well disciplined infantry could very well adopt formation techniques to fight rather well in rougher terrain, I bet the Romans were pretty good at this in general... but they would certainly be at a disadvantage in rough terrain versus open terrain in comparison but perhaps less so than hoplite type formations but not necessarily Gallic warbands.

Pdguru wrote:All,

I am finding the AI uses dozens of Javelin units (foot and mounted) which dominate every battle. Seemingly unlimited ammo and impossible to catch as they evade any attempt to contact them, they annihilate regular infantry. Then if you do occasionally catch them, they are a match for any kind of infantry and even cavalry, and either win or hold firm for multiple moves. Then if they 'fall back', you're back to chasing them. Any suggestions on how to handle this?

Yet in the other thread they say Javelins are useless.

Although, that was the opinion of one member, that appears to have been proven incorrect.

After playing with them for a while, I feel like they are sort of unsung heroes. Their feats seem to be not very well-recognized by ancient sources with a few exceptional ones. I guess because they are not difficult to be utilized by everyone and they are mostly fighting enemy counterparts long enough (or too long and overrun by cavalry) to not have a huge impact to main battle line. They are a kind of insurance that having a few of them is better than having none.

nikgaukroger wrote: I am desperately trying to recall another word used by Caesar that has been used to suggest legionarii acting as light infantry but it is evading me at the moment. However, it basically just means that they were not carrying their usual "impedimetia" i.e. the baggage they normally carried as part of being "Marius' mules". They were, therefore, just troops ready to fight at a moments notice rather than fulfilling a separate function.

Am I thinking of "expeditii" here?

Dredging the memory