Slitherine

Ok, I just finished 1942 on my Manstein playthrough. This means it is time to upgrade my infantry to it's 43 counterparts.
So here are my thoughts. (I wish I knew how to post pictures like my buddy Hurly does. )

Here is a breakdown of my Infantry units:
2 +1 Spotting Kradschutzen each of which have a +1 Spotting (These are my fun but extremely vulnerable recon units)

Kradschutzen
+
* Great spotting range and with +1 Spotting they can even see 2 spaces in inclement weather.
* Great Initiative, they almost always fire first and can do significant damage to suppressed soft targets.
* Good for getting in and out of hot spots. (as long as there is a road)
* Cheap
-
* Extremely vulnerable to tank attack even in close terrain.
* Limited traverse outside of roads or cities.
* Very limited supply of fuel.
* They have no upgrade path. (They are what they are)

2 Grenadier's (Freidrich Pein and a +3 Def Baddy with a Half Track)

Grenadier
+
* Best damaging unit for soft and hard of any infantry class.
* Strong Defender (Even on clear terrain as long as you have proper artillery back up)
-
* Limited mobility
* They don't always fire first, it seems to be a real toss up.
* Limited ammo, they need to replenish more often at only 5

2 Pioniere's: Here I have not been as blessed with great heroes as 1 has a +2 Def and the other had a +1 Att thankfully he did get a 2nd hero that is a +1 movement that greatly improves his worth, but I really go back and forth on these units as they seem like they should do better than they do for me.

Pioniere

+
* Enemy never get's Rugged Defense.
* Hitting power is up there with Grenadier's

-
* Always seem to fire last, so constantly taking damage, unless the other unit is fully suppressed which defeats the reason for having a Pioniere.
* Defense is not as strong as Grenadiers but has all the other negatives that Grenadier's have

7 Gebirsjaeger's (Now you see my true love in the game)
Oleh Dir, Helmut Weinsberger, +3 Att, +2 Att, +1 Att, +1 Initiative, +3 Def

Gebirsjaeger
+
* Best mobility in the game, the only thing that limits their movement is Desert, Forests, Rivers, or Swamps. (other than that they are moving)
* Cheap (Even their upgrade is cheap in comparison)
* They almost always fire first. (unless the enemy gets a Rugged defense)
-
* Not as Defensible as other units.
* Vulnerable when not in close terrain.
* Only best versus soft targets.


Regular's, Cavalry, Paratroopers, and Bruckenpioniere
I do not have any of these units as I see them as weak vulnerable and not conducive to a long term Campaign. I know others have been able to use Regular's and Fallschimjager with some success, as did I on Guderian difficulty. But on Manstein level they are not feasible.

So these are my thoughts on the infantry units.

I would love to hear yours and what you use and why.
I am going to upgrade soon, once I start my 43 Campaign, but I am not 100% sure if I should just upgrade all units to their respective 43 counter parts or change them up.

I have 77,000 in prestige so that is not the issue, it is the issue to create the best long term army. Should I continue to field an army full of Mt. Troops? They just do so well, for me and are my favorite infantry unit, but I appear to be alone in this thinking.

Thanks guys, I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Standard infantry

Good enough combat stats and 6 ammo over 5 makes a huge difference on all those defensive scenarios. Even if grenadiers or pioneers had three movement I'd still go with regulars.

I also think regular infantry is the default choice for the 43 upgrade. 43 Gebirgsjager isn't as good as 43 Wehr Inf in my opinion because of its weaker HA and GD. Yes, the Gebirgsjager has higher AD, but infantry should be in close terrain most of (if not all) the time beginning in 1942, and close terrain helps to bolster the infantry's lower AD. Thus, the Gebirgsjager's higher AD isn't that unique.

43 Grenadiers are worth having if they have movement heroes, which complement the type's excellent SA, HA, and ini. 43 Pioniere are a disappointment because it doesn't get an ini upgrade unlike regular infantry, gebirgsjaeger and grenadier in 1943. You might want to upgrade a unit with an initiative hero to 43 Pioniere, but its ini will still lag behind that of a regular infantry with the same level of experience. I tried this trick and did not like the result (lots of wasted prestige ). I ended up converting all pioniere units to either infantry or gebirgsjaeger (on SdKfz 251/1), which turned out to be more useful for the southern Kursk path because of the vast, often mountainous, expanses involved. As you pointed out, the pioniere's ignore rugged defense trait is redundant because you need to suppress the opposition anyway to make up for the pioniere's low ini. In all, slow movement, low ini and high cost make the 43 pioniere unattractive.

I do have a bridge engineer, which was very helpful for Ponyri, and possibly for Prohkorovka as well. So, it's a unit that is useful in the right scenario and not too expensive.

Don't use the other unit types and don't plan to.

One more thing: while 43 Gebirgsjaeger isn't as good as 43 Inf in my view, they are still pretty useful because there are many maps with mountainous terrain. I have 4 x 43 Gebirgsjaeger battalions in my current GC43E playthrough.

I usually use a ratio of about 2 Wehr Inf to 1 Grenadier in my cores. The Grenadiers are usually just for defending stuff though.

- BNC

Correction to a previous post: two auxiliary bridge engineers were very helpful in Oboyan, not Ponyri (yet to try the northern Kursk path). I did deploy my bridge engineer at Belgorod to speed up the movement of units across the Donets.

I try to use a healthy mix of everything. I have at least 3 of every type all with at least 3-4 stars of experience, except Kradshutzen ( i have 1 ) because indeed they will be less useful due to no upgrades, poor performance in snow, etc. All different types can come in quite handy at different times. Try to give movement heroes to Pioneers or Grenadiers. Of course i cannot give a guide about which unit to use where. Then again, i'm a real infantry lover. I would say get all of them, but regular infantry seems to be the best all-round unit. 3 movement, good hard and soft attack, good ammo...what's not to like?
I have yet to try the Bridge pioneers. They might come in handy, but do you really want to buy them for 1/2 incidental scenarios? If you can still get the decisive in those missions without extra losses you don't really need them. I'm currently also testing Oleh Dir as a Pioneer 43'. Initial results are...underwhelming. Perhaps he will perform better without snow.

Regards,

Phoenix

What I don't understand is why Gebirsjaeger always seem to fire first. Their Initiative is not that great, do they have some hidden trait that makes them fire first, or have I just gotten extremely lucky rolls for an entire campaign?

Goose

For Gebirgsjäger: I=2, 43 I=3

USSR Inf:
Regular I=1, 43 I=3
Guards I=2, 43 I=4
SMG I=1

Infantry gets I+0.5 per star

Gebirgsjäger will get first shot through 42 on any infantry, except Guards or the Brits.

Kradschutzen : I=3
Nico’s equipment mod gives recon movement and 39 availability.
39 availability allows one to get exp and kills on the lesser allied infantry. By 43 they are a role unit not main infantry.
Reconmove allows one to attack a town, displace the unit, and move into the town, entrenched against counter attack.
Without reconmove a Krad is FJ with motorcycles.

Ok so if I am reading you correct, the only reason they have been firing first is based on the Initiative from 39-42 versus the Initiative on my enemy units from 39-42...this will change according to you as of 43, so dalfrede what do you suggest I do with all my Gebirsjaeger's...I have 7 right now.

Oleh Dir, I think I want to keep as a Mountain machine as his ability to get in and out of anywhere is just to awesome to pass up, and with his boost in Initiative, he should continue to do fine.
Helmut Weinsberger, I was considering changing to a Grenadier based on the postings for the extra defense, as he is a favorite for the enemy to target and as such is one of the first unit's damaged, all because of that costly transport he hauls around in. Thoughts?

My 3 +Attack heroes I am thinking based on the postings to change all to Regular Infantry, without transport, maybe one with a truck, but probably not. Thoughts?

My +3 Def and +1 Initiative Geb's will remain as I need some Mountain units for maneuverability and just plain awesomeness...Thoughts?

My Kradschutzen bot have +1 Spotting and 1 has 3 stars the other has 4 and although they are vulnerable, and do not have recon movement, I will continue to try and utilize them in that role.
All the rest will remain as is, but I am considering changing the Pioniere's over to Regulars, as the consensus seems to be Pioniere's are not worth their weight as their Initiative means they get hit first before they hit the enemy, means more damage, which means more prestige, maybe 1 with +1 movement to a Grenadier, the other to a Regular. Thoughts?

Thanks guys you are the best.

I would split between Gebirsjaeger and Regular Inf

Gren - assault core, attack heroes
Reg - core, move heroes
Geb - core, move or defense heroes

Pionier - ‘aux’ unit, scenerio dependent, for minefields and forts
Bruckenpioniere - ‘aux’ unit, scenerio dependent


I have attached screenshot of the original and my modifed equip files that shows the relevant data.
You may notice I adjusted my file for easy examination on Excel [OpenOffice Calc].

Note all rocket Artillery have ROF of 10.

If the AI likes to target units with SdKfz 250/1, consider downgrading the transport to 251/1 or Opel. I don't use the 250/1 because it's too expensive and it's 8-move is a bit of an overkill because infantry should not outpace armor.

If you plan on taking the southern Kursk route, then I would recommend keeping some Gebirgsjaegers. Reason: the western sector of Yakovlevo, Oboyan, Kursk Armory South, and Prohkorovka have mountainous terrain, which is where Gebirgsjaegers are most effective. Oleh Dir is ideal for such situations (the best infantry scripted hero IMHO). Other than Dir, half-track mounted Gebirgsjaegers can be particularly helpful because the western sector of Oboyan and Kursk Armory South are not well served by roads, so trucks won't give you the needed mobility. I managed to get DV in Kursk Armory South because my half-tracked Gebirgsjaeger sped along the western edge of the map with accompanying armor and arty (I don't use Dir or other scripted heroes).

If you field ample arty and level bombers, and can therefore suppress Soviet infantry, you rarely need the Pioniere's 'ignore-entrenchment' ability. They also have the bunker killer trait, but most tanks and tank destroyers can fill that role as well. As for minesweeper, it's not that important because it's expensive to lose strength points just to kill a minefield (I'm thinking of Yakovlevo). I prefer to go around minefields or take them out with arty and/or tactical bombers.

German infantry is quite a good mix of abilities, so my preferences change over time (usually according to what went wrong last time).

Although gebirgsjager are usually better before 43, wehr 43 are usually better after 43. For mine clearing, xeperience doesn't matter so you can field green pios if you haven't got enough, but one or two experienced ones can be useful (I often convert Oleh Dir for this). Grenadieren I like for attack, but in defensive situations the low ammo can be a minus, so I will usually use SE infantry for that, as the extra ammo and +1SA come in handy.
+1 spotting heroes usually become kradschutzen before 43.

In contrast to many of the comments above, I tend to have as many Pioneers as Regulars. This is mainly down to forever suffering from Rugged Defence (or so it seemed) when playing the base game. There wasn't always the time to pound a defensive position with artillery and bombers before attacking, and I decided that I wanted the flexibility of Pioneers when I started the GC. The limited move is a big drawback, I agree, although I have a +3 move for my top unit. It's great to see so many different opinions on what to use and why.

Surprised few players consider German Fallschirmjäger as core infantry - 3 mov and high initiative, with + att and + def heroes my most valuable infantry.

ptje63 wrote:Surprised few players consider German Fallschirmjäger as core infantry - 3 mov and high initiative, with + att and + def heroes my most valuable infantry.

I have never been able to use Fallschirmjaeger to the greatest effect, their low defense and my tendency to put them in vulnerable enemy weak spots were fun to create havoc, but usually ends up getting them killed. And on Manstein I need more defensive capabilities than Fallschirmjaeger manage to put up... I did have 2 that did their role very well in Sedan 40, but that role ended up getting them killed while saving my other units from possible destruction...

Paratroopers need to be used properly in order not to lose them.
The Fallschirmjaegers I found useful in the proper situation. In Eban Emael for example,they help with the assault on the fortresses much more effectively than pioniere.
In Minsk two FSJs are quite useful in securing airfields.
In your Sedan playthrough, Goose, you simply dropped them too far away and out of support range. I think they would have been more effective if used to secure an airfield or to hit the Sedan artillery from behind, although I do not use them myself in that battle.
Despite their individual great stats they are not capable of sustained combat. If they cannot be relieved and are in danger of imminent attack on the very next turn, do not drop them. W/o artillery support they can quickly be attrited and die if left out by themselves.
They are actually quite good at speeding up advances when used properly.
I am currently in the process of playing through the campaign myself at Manstein, so far with all decisive victories. The challenge here is that one can seldom achieve decisive victory on the first playthrough. Usually it takes some finetuning and changes in the OOB before it can be achieved. For instance, in Modlin I found that two strategic bombers could not keep the two fortresses and armored train suppressed enough to secure the victory but three could do the job. IMHO Manstein is the hardest level you can have a chance of playing through 1945. Since I finish most battles on Field Marshal four or five turns early, Guderian is a nonstarter. Rommel I have never tried. It does look like you would simply run out of prestige by 1944 at this level, making the campaign unable to be finished.
Once Field Marshal becomes too easy, Manstein is the way to go.

ptje63 wrote:Surprised few players consider German Fallschirmjäger as core infantry - 3 mov and high initiative, with + att and + def heroes my most valuable infantry.

I do like the stats you mentioned. And it seems that any time I play with one of these I always seem to top it off with a ridiculous +3 attack or +3 defense hero. But, my biggest complaint - and reason for using them sparingly - is the 4 ammo. If the unit runs dry, it can end up in real trouble.

shawkhan2 wrote:Paratroopers need to be used properly in order not to lose them.
The Fallschirmjaegers I found useful in the proper situation. In Eban Emael for example,they help with the assault on the fortresses much more effectively than pioniere.
In Minsk two FSJs are quite useful in securing airfields.
In your Sedan playthrough, Goose, you simply dropped them too far away and out of support range. I think they would have been more effective if used to secure an airfield or to hit the Sedan artillery from behind, although I do not use them myself in that battle.
Despite their individual great stats they are not capable of sustained combat. If they cannot be relieved and are in danger of imminent attack on the very next turn, do not drop them. W/o artillery support they can quickly be attrited and die if left out by themselves.
They are actually quite good at speeding up advances when used properly.
I am currently in the process of playing through the campaign myself at Manstein, so far with all decisive victories. The challenge here is that one can seldom achieve decisive victory on the first playthrough. Usually it takes some finetuning and changes in the OOB before it can be achieved. For instance, in Modlin I found that two strategic bombers could not keep the two fortresses and armored train suppressed enough to secure the victory but three could do the job. IMHO Manstein is the hardest level you can have a chance of playing through 1945. Since I finish most battles on Field Marshal four or five turns early, Guderian is a nonstarter. Rommel I have never tried. It does look like you would simply run out of prestige by 1944 at this level, making the campaign unable to be finished.
Once Field Marshal becomes too easy, Manstein is the way to go.

Wait a minute you are playing Grand Campaign and have gotten all Decisive Victory's in year 1939...That is incredible, and frankly hard to believe...How did you do it?

TSPC37730 wrote:

ptje63 wrote:Surprised few players consider German Fallschirmjäger as core infantry - 3 mov and high initiative, with + att and + def heroes my most valuable infantry.

I do like the stats you mentioned. And it seems that any time I play with one of these I always seem to top it off with a ridiculous +3 attack or +3 defense hero. But, my biggest complaint - and reason for using them sparingly - is the 4 ammo. If the unit runs dry, it can end up in real trouble.

I really wanted to like Fallschirmjäger but the ammo situation like you mentioned kills it for me.

From an armchair dev perspective, I'd give them 5 ammo and raise their price a lot to compensate for this. Yes they were limited in what they can carry, but those guys were experts at packing themselves with as much bullets as physically possible and didn't have as much heavy weapons with larger ammo per shot.

Either that, or somehow give more ammo when not deployed in the air but I don't think the game engine supports this.