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Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:17 pm
by Erik2
Replaced substitute units with proper British unit types.
Removed at start acquired specialisations.
Reduced specialisation income from 5 to 3.
Added Kriegsmarine specialisation income.
Added specialisation point rewards to applicable secondary objectives.
Scenario fixes.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/168 ... on_3.0.zip

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:14 am
by Horst
Thanks for posting! Better add a link to the campaign DL-topic in the OP too, so people find it faster.

I still haven't started the campaign yet, as I still found some things to tweak for my own mod here. Something that should be changed though is that you start with Auftragstaktik but not with Specialized Training. Auftr. has Spec. Training as requirement after all.
Maybe a better idea for continuation campaigns: instead of gifting specialisations, give points from the start, so players may choose their own specs. Players always like options!
At least I always check out the spec-tree first when starting a campaign, but I can imagine some people forget about it. That's done in the data.cmp like this as example:
<specs>
points = 20
hidden =...
available =...
</specs>

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:41 am
by Erik2
Good idea about specs points.

Auftragstaktik only requires Boot_Camp according to the specialisations.csv file. Is Spec training = Bootcamp?

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:11 am
by Andy2012
@Erik: Hm, I just cant decide with what campaign I am going to console myself after Kriegsmarine. Do you need feedback for Sea Lion first or want to wrap up Blitzkrieg 41-42. I mean, that one is already pretty much finished, most of the missions worked neatly. Or did you do major revisions? I still have my campaignsaves, so I can jump to one mission directly. I probably wont replay the whole campaign again. (Can take a while before I get started.)

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:34 am
by Erik2
Andy

I plan to add more scenarios to Blitzkrieg 41-42 later when additional German and Soviet unit types are hopefully available.
Missing unit types forced me to cut it short.

So if you have some spare time, Sea Lion would be my preferred campaign test right now.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:16 pm
by Horst
spec_boot_camp_title = Specialized Training
• Newly purchased infantry units start with 1 experience star

spec_auftragstaktik_title = Auftragstaktik
• Infantry units deal +1 damage to all ground targets

Yes, boot_camp requires auftrag normally, that's why I was confused you get auftrag but not boot_camp first. I rather learned the data-names too while hanging too much in the files instead in the game.
Sea Lion has also a little more attraction to me with a naval+land mix than fights against the Soviets in 1942 with missing units what Erik mentioned. I also don't know this campaign yet, so I guess I qualify myself well as "amateur beta-tester". :P

PS: Erik, should you give points instead of the specs at beginning, then add a remark in the campaign screen below the first mission text as reminder to spend them before starting the mission. AFAIK, the game isn't coded to give a popup at the very first campaign mission if you have unspent spec-points (left).

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:15 pm
by Horst
0Channel: it worked but I couldn’t manage to get all objectives. My core was not that effective. I better should replay it with plenty cheap inf, ig18 and maybe two pak-36.

1Eagle: can’t work with only such few RPs. What’s also still not fixed are the supply points in the German mainland. You start with -35 land-supply. Have mercy, and please add at least 50 more to support mods like mine. I don’t know how the scenario is triggered if you are going to loose supply by Brit strat bombers or whatever French resistance is going to bummer the supply points. There is half of Europe occupied by the Axis forces behind the player, so supply should absolutely not be an issue along the coast.

The original PC campaign had like this naval setup if I found and counted them right:
2x Heavy Cruiser: 260
1x Light Cruiser: 80
1x Destroyer: 55
5x Submarine: 300
3x S-Boat: 60
That’s a total RP of 755 in OOB units, but you start with only 710 KM-RP.
Germany faction doesn’t get a single RP at start, what makes it quite difficult if you have already spent more or less anything in the first mission. With so many airplanes, I doubt that 27 income is enough, but that has to been tested later:

8x Bf 109: 720
1x Bf 110C: 80
6x Bf 110D: 510
4x Ju 87: 240
2x Do 17: 300
4x He 111: 880
2x Ju 88: 400
That’s whopping 3130 RP worth of aux-planes in the sky NOT included the player core-planes, supported by only 27 RP per turn. In OOB, we can expect a lot of bomber damage thanks to the bad escort mechanic and the naval AA-support fire, so if all bombers loose like 1 strength point per turn, that’s already 182 RP worth of damage, not adding all the own fighter damage for engaging all these challenging RAF fighters.

I don't dare to start playing this second scenario until the supply and RP situation has improved somehow. Better too many RPs for a test than too few. I could still cheat by adding RPs, but I rather like to try it first without such methods. I still don't know the scenario that much yet to make a good RP suggestion.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:06 pm
by Erik2
Eagle is probably the most difficult scenario in the campaign to balance.
It was created in pre-KM days. I'll take another look at supply, resources and command points.

Edit: Various changes to Eagle scenario. Specializations delivered as points at campaign start.
Link in first post updated.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:05 pm
by Horst
Link in OP and custom campaign forum broken.

Something that had always bothered me about some scenarios with auxiliary units: I’m not really up to repair/feed them by my own resources.
While it’s not a big deal with less than a handful extra units, a scenario like Eagle Attack makes me almost scream like an eagle if I have to take control of more aux units than my core.
Unlike the situation in PC, we received the nice possibility in OOB with the KM update to use copies of factions which could nicely be used there. Let’s have the "arrogant" Luftwaffe their own faction with resources to deal with the enemy.
This is a similar situation like I’ve seen in the Crete scenarios: you receive plenty RPs but rather like to save them for yourself. In the end, you are going to handle the aux units like kamikaze ones just to save up as many RPs as possible that you finish the scenario with too many points left. Having an own pool of resources to manage your small core force can better be balanced this way with separated factions, like the Kriegsmarine one.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:08 am
by Erik2
Download link fixed.

Yes, I would like more factions for major nations. This is especially useful for separating the resource income for air/land/navy.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:07 am
by Andy2012
@Erik: I quickly bashed my way through Channel Islands. Nice start, would need 14 turns to be fully playable. That is a lot of side targets and even with my lightinf, lightAT, light arty approach quite difficult to master. Especially getting Guderian early is important. Those division lines between the islands seem unnecessary to me, you never get to swap units between them anyway. (Except Stukas)
BTW, I liked that this time, you can deploy your paras on the ground from the start. Drop them right on the airfields, done.
Eagle attack looks daunting, Horst is probably right about the Aux units. Wont be able to play it in the next few days.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:27 am
by Andy2012
@Erik: Oh yeah, almost forgot - bought Naval Academy, but ships do not have one star when bought. I assume it only applies to the Wehrmacht faction by default and you should open it up to Kriegsmarine, too.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:54 am
by Horst
The time runs indeed quickly out on the Channel Island map. You possibly beat it easier with additional paratrooper units that have more punch and don't bother for 4 turns about supply.
Can't test it at moment - fighting with my own mod-bugs here.

I've already experimented by adding a second German faction for those many aux units, but the Eagle crashes to the infamous 2d-map bug screen.
Doesn't look like the game can handle duplicated factions sharing resource points. It most likely only works if different players/colors share a faction flag.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:00 am
by Andy2012
@Erik: Looked at Sea Lion in the editor while waiting for work mail. Holy sh*t, that is never going to work. The RN, RAF with all that AA, french saboteurs, Battleships, etc? This will be Crete all over again. Erik, you need to cut this down. There are way too many things to do at the same time, too many aux units, too much french resistance, too powerful RN (with the Kriegsmarine maybe a few Hippers and DDs without exp). This will be an impossible meatgrinder without any fun.
Suggestion: Cut the number of units down on both sides massively. Give me some aux Kriegsmarine with exp. Cut the AA especially near the coast. Cut down the french resistance.
Horst?

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:44 am
by Horst
@Andy
Heh, yeah, it's a campaign designed by nikivdd. His scenarios also have an overflowing tendency. :D
Take a look at the original here:
https://picload.org/image/rcpddpow/sl2.jpg
Erik is kind of innocent. He just copied everything. I think I'm going to try a submarine-only approach, but I hadn't really time yet to make a good plan.

I just recently added a mine-laying feature to US, UK, and Ger submarines. Maybe this could become useful here. I know I'm a cheating bastard with mods! :twisted:

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:08 pm
by Andy2012
Horst wrote:@Andy
Heh, yeah, it's a campaign designed by nikivdd. His scenarios also have an overflowing tendency. :D
Take a look at the original here:
https://picload.org/image/rcpddpow/sl2.jpg
Erik is kind of innocent. He just copied everything. I think I'm going to try a submarine-only approach, but I hadn't really time yet to make a good plan.

I just recently added a mine-laying feature to US, UK, and Ger submarines. Maybe this could become useful here. I know I'm a cheating bastard with mods! :twisted:
Whoa. That is a packed map.

@Erik: Especially with the botched game mechanics after Kriegsmarine, you need to adapt this. Panzercorps is a balanced system, this is not. (And the next DLCs will probably make this worse every 3-4 months...but hey, 'we are adding content' :roll: )

I'd suggest the following changes.
1. French saboteurs - 1-2 per airfield. They are really powerful and hard to find. Maybe remove some tanks and give me more inf to get them.
2. Make the RAF AA stationary next to airfields and London. London can be full of AA to add an incentive not to overextend.
3. Change shoot down all fighers to "do x amount of damage". That is more flexible.
4. Either give me torpedo Stukas aux and cut down on the heavy RN units. Or go for some aux torpedo subs with exp.
5. Cut out all the strat bombers, they are useless against the RN and I dont need to cut supply for an invasion now. Throw out the aux 110s as well. KM did not change that naval warfare problem of the Luftwaffe, they still dont make a dent.
6. Increase Kriegsmarine starting points and points per turn and give me some exp aux units, especially subs.
7. Let the air battle be one between fighers and some Stukas. RAF has fighters, I have fighters and some Stukas against ships.
8. Change "take these areas in the sea" to just "sink these RN ships". This is more flexible.

Generally, I think the focus on eagle attack should be on a smaller naval battle and a bigger fighter battle. This would be both historically correct (take air superiority over the channel was imperative for an invasion) and feasible with the somewhat botched game mechanics of OoB. Lets face it, air and naval battles arent the strongest suit of this franchise. French Resistance should be a minor side show.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:42 pm
by Horst
Erik, better remove/hide that "Unrestricted Submarine Warfare" spec. It doesn't work (yet). Not supported by the KM campaign either.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:53 pm
by Andy2012
@Erik: Just took a quick look a Folkstone / Dover.
Jesus Christ, this is going to be a disaster landing. I mean, the British have more exp, more units, more arty, bunkers which can shoot my landing ships, a layered defense while I get 18 turns and my Stukas start at the other coast, mostly.
Nope, not in a million years. You need to decrease the difficulty of this. And not by drowning me in aux units or credits, mostly by reducing the amount of units on the other side. Landings are challenging, for sure. But with the way OoB works, you need to make adaptions. There should be a feasible landing site. At least one. And at this point, I only have green units. So giving the Brits two star exp and more arty than I can deploy inf makes this unplayable. Sorry.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:18 pm
by Horst
Sergeant Andy, pull yourself together and show more courage against impossible odds! :P
Seriously, many scenarios look intimidating at beginning, but turn out to be not so tough in the end.

Erik, you need to give the Kriegsmarine their own specs if they should start with more experience with Naval Academy, for example. If the campaign never supports naval units for the Germany-core then better hide all these naval-specs too, so players won't waste points there.
It's theoretically possible to add a second Kriegsmarine core with own spec-menu, for example in data.cmp:
[CORES]
wehrmacht = germany
kriegsCore = kriegsmarine

This would require that you give additional spec points per scenario, e.g.:
[Channel Islands]
specs = germany, 5
specs = kriegsmarine, 5

I still have no idea yet how to give separated spec-points at campaign start. Hidding unnecessary specs at both factions should be done to prevent confusion.
It's maybe better/easier to just gift the KM faction their specs as you most likely won't use the ships in later campaigns anyway. No idea how importing with several factions should work. It didn't work with Waffen-SS at least.

Re: Sea Lion feedback

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:39 pm
by Andy2012
Horst wrote:Sergeant Andy, pull yourself together and show more courage against impossible odds! :P
Seriously, many scenarios look intimidating at beginning, but turn out to be not so tough in the end.
I dont mind intimidating. But 18 turns, smaller force, no arty and close air support, tons of side goals and more arty near the coast than I have units?
I mean, I tried 2 turns and Guderian is already injured for the next 4 turns and I have not even landed my already battered force while my Stukas are another turn away. And that next round of arty and naval guns is just around the corner, including dug in heavy inf.
Yeah, right. With some missions (like Moscow), you can already see that this will be impossible. (Channel Islands was playable and okay.)