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Almughavars
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:18 pm
by chrisrivers
They can be either offensive spearmen or impact foot. I have been going back and forth on which is better in an Aragonese army. The Impact foot are better in difficult terrain, while the spear is better in the open and rough. What does the braintrust think?
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:58 pm
by hazelbark
I started with impact foot because that sounded cool. But offensive spear is pretty decent and it negates enemy swords so is pretty good in melee.
But also if the MF are fighting some enemy mounted, then you likley will want the spear.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:25 pm
by nikgaukroger
Impact Foot every time
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:52 pm
by hammy
It depends what you want them to do
That said as impact foot they are really good terrain troops, as offensive spear they are ok in rough terrain but less good in difficult and ok in the open against mounted. Personally I prefer really good in the right place to OK in most places.
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:41 am
by jlopez
I tend to opt for POAs that you never lose. With offensive spear you tend to lose its benefits when disrupted and even more so when fragmented which tends to accelerate the demise of the unit.
Impact foot any day. If it was good enough for the Romans, it'll be good enough for Catalans!
Julian
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:48 am
by SirGarnet
You have enough spear/pike heavy foot choices available on the list for open ground, so take Impact Foot for use in terrain or as anti-infantry shock troops.
not only impact foot
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:01 am
by ALMOGAVARI
but also should bear a bonus agains cavalry, they were specialized in hunting knights, they were fast and heavy weapon armoured with the special sword called "coltell" , heavy short butcher knife
to cut horses and knights in pieces...
Regards
Almogavari
Re: not only impact foot
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:51 pm
by jlopez
ALMOGAVARI wrote:but also should bear a bonus agains cavalry, they were specialized in hunting knights, they were fast and heavy weapon armoured with the special sword called "coltell" , heavy short butcher knife
to cut horses and knights in pieces...
Regards
Almogavari
Yes, they were very good at butchering knights...floundering in a swamp. I think it could have been another story if they had been at the business end of a lance on open ground. Besides, this isn't Dungeons and Dragons. There are no magic weapons.
Julian
Re: not only impact foot
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:22 am
by peterrjohnston
jlopez wrote:Yes, they were very good at butchering knights...floundering in a swamp. I think it could have been another story if they had been at the business end of a lance on open ground. Besides, this isn't Dungeons and Dragons. There are no magic weapons.
To be precise, something happened that made them turn into the marsh, not the almughavars hid in the marsh, unlike the cowardly English at Azincourt, hiding behind stakes in a muddy field...
"And he put himself [the Count of Brienne, now Duke of Athens] in the van with his banner and proceeded to attack the Company, and they of the Company went to attack him. What shall I tell you? The horses of the count, at the noise the almugavars made, turned towards the marsh, and there the count and the banner fell, and all those who were in the van". [My italics. From section CCXL in Goodenough's translation of Muntaner]
You checked the translation for me and commented:
jlopez wrote:The Goodenough translation is...wait for it...good enough! The bit about about the turning of the knight into the swamp is a bit obscure. My guess, and yours is as good as mine, is that rather than the noise being the factor for the change of direction it was a tactical decision taken by the Franks. Muntaner, on the receiving end of the charge, may have thought that it was due to the noise but I doubt trained warhorses would have been put off at a bit of screaming. However, the source is clear about them turning "for" or "towards" the swamp. Maybe they decided to veer off towards the Company's flanks to avoid a frontal attack? Either way it was one those "pants" moments so beloved of Tim. Funnily enough I refought this battle using POW with four catalans playing both sides. I made them read the original Cronica and then had the Company players draw a plan showing the position of the concealed swamps. The Frankish players, despite having read the account, just looked up the factors, decided it was a doddle and charged straight into the swamps where they got slaughtered...doh
All very interesting.
We still focus too much on weapons in wargames rules IMV, but that's a meta-discussion.
Rgds,
Peter
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:31 am
by hammy
There was a lot of discussion on this during the list writing process. In the end there was evidence that could have Alumghvars as either impact foot or spearmen and a good argument that they should be half way between the two. In the end the choice was given to players.