Slitherine

Hello all,

The review of Sengoku Jidai on the Great Ming Military blog generated an interesting discussion in the comments about potential (albeit fairly minor) inaccuracies in the portrayal of Chinese and other armies. Some of the more significant suggestions included a greater role for dismountable archers and war carts in northern Ming armies, and a lesser role for foot archery in the south. The possibility of making Mandarin Duck formations more distinct was also brought up

I was wondering if the devs are planning on incorporating any of this feedback into the army lists in Mandate of Heaven, and if there will be any revisions to the existing lists in additon to the new ones. Adding carts would be an interesting feature, especially if it could also be ported back into Pike and Shot (for a more realistic depiction of battles like Ravenna and Wimpfen).

The war carts are interesting. Though I acknowledge the presence of these contraptions, I'm not sure about the extent of usage. I do know these have proven useful against the Mongols and I'm pretty sure they weren't used in the Imjin War. So the war cart might not be really common but only employed by some generals as an exception. Same goes for the Dzungar (Western Mongol) Camel wall. It was only used during one famous battle.

War carts and Camel walls can be simulated in the game by using fences / light forts but you lose the mobility (set up and pack up) feature. Also the basic Ming mixed units are already effective at countering cavalry impact. This conveniently (but not explicitly) simulates various tactics like shield walls, which may also extend to the so called war carts. The various artillery in the Ming roster can also be thought of as war carts which can both move and deploy. They are already pretty resilient when there is an adjacent infantry unit to protect it.

That said, the game is flexible enough to accommodate a real war cart. Someone just have to do the 3D model and maybe code some special POAs.


PS: Great Ming Military blog says that carts were used in Imjin war.

The concern mentioned in Great Ming blog that resonated with me was him saying that he finds the lack of close combat ability of Chinese lists to be puzzling ("defies belief" was his term). Hopefully the Iron Troops can get the Chinese something tanky. I find the lack of close combat capabilities to be hard to reconcile
with popular cultural depictions, but perhaps it is a hollywood versus history thing. The Great Ming blog's description of the combined arms of the Mandarin Duck
squad, with shooters and tassels and pikes, seems like a pretty cool unit to see in game (compared to the current "crispy roast" duck squad which is just unarmored ashigaru spearmen). In game I usually buy as many tribal troops as I can so I have something to throw into the fray, plus tribals at least gets the Chinese some foot skirmishers (otherwise there is completely no skirmishers).

His suggestion of giving rockets to close combat troops could be represented by giving some chinese melee units an impact bonus, sort of like the European Salvo infantry, where the rockets are fired just before melee. I admit, I don't think that should work on the attack though.

"Ming troops were pikemen". I assume the pikes that I also expected to see are the sprinkling of light spearmen in the shooting formations.

The other suggestion the blog made that I agreed was finding it very hard to believe the Japanese had elite and superior charging cavalry, to the extent even better than Mongols and Jurchen. To be fair Ming had far fewer access to horses like the Tang (not as bad as Song though), but Japan has even worse access to good horses. I agree the Takeda and Co moved the cavalry to shock instead of shooting, but comparatively, Japan should have poorer cavalry compared to the mainland factions, just by dint of having poorer access to horses and hence trained riders.

That said, I am fine with how it is if I take it on game terms. Ming is the Tau or Imperial guard of the game, relying on shooting. Japan are like Chaos Marines or Orks, relying far more on charging in. Korea are space marines who can both melee and shoot. Mongols are probably Eldar that warp around. Thinking like this makes me OK with all the design decisions.

kongxinga wrote:The other suggestion the blog made that I agreed was finding it very hard to believe the Japanese had elite and superior charging cavalry, to the extent even better than Mongols and Jurchen.

They are pretty easy to beat with Mongols or Jurchen - by shooting them to bits, and evading their charges, as would be the normal Mongol/Jurchen method.