Slitherine

This is the current situation.



My best army 1034 will face 1157 (both armies plus auxilliaries) and I'll take a big defeat... but what happens if my second army ALSO loses? That I am pushed on the defensive: I have almost conquered anything and the Takeda should now be scraping the barrel. In theory I could wait... but I can't reinforce these two armies, while Takeda can and will raise a new army.

In the next year I'll have 264 koku, too little to raise a new army... and even if I could, it wouldn't get there in time. Takeda will merge its three armies and crush my 865 (while 1034 goes out of supply).
I already know it because I've run it... so you see in this situation I have no choice but to attack. I will SURELY lose the first engagement and must pray I win the second.

Honestly this is upside down, the opposite of what it should be.
I agree with my 264 koku for next year since my armies have a big upkeep... but when I think Takeda has basically only 1 territory to levy taxes from and it can still create a new army, my shoulders slump.

Well... since I have no choice... I'm going to attack.

Hats off, I pulled out a miracle here!!!!



Well I don't like the artificial handicap on the winning side but I've beaten it (by miracle) this time. There could be hundreds of possible solutions to extend the campaign by unpredictable events (revolts, betrayal of a general, disease epidemic, etc.) ... really... the campaign is too fun already and I can't imagine what it could become with some work on it in the future.

Consider I've yet to see the SJ campaign, I keep savoring it for the last... now I've got to go back to Tenka Fubu playing as Takeda... then the mongols. I think I might never even see it.

Congratulations

Jomni,
the limitations on the campaign engine imposed on the front line armies that can't be reinforced have been aggravating this campaign and they are basically ruining the one I'm playing for the Takeda side which followed this present campaign I won.
Oda has a slight advantage but lost a province. As Takeda I am now in Gifu, which also fell so it's 2 provinces and you can already see the making of the usual problem in just less than 2 yrs: the Oda (who are losing) are growing stronger and the Takeda (who are winning) are growing weaker.

The main Oda Army is stronger than all my combined armies and Oda also has an extra army besieging Osaka (which I can't reach).

I've tried different combinations of movements to pass this turn and I came to realize it's virtually impossible because the Oda are simply too strong. If I concentrate everything I have in Gifu (which is mine) I'll starve my army but Oda's army which is stronger, in its home province bordering Gifu is not starving. If I don't concentrate, I'll be destroyed if a battle takes place and lose Gifu in one turn if the battle doesn't take place. This means losing the newly installed garrison (the side who's winning gets even weaker).

It's impossible to win in a fortified situation, they are just too many and some units in my army can't be moved or lose the fortification bonus.
It's impossible to win on a river map because they are too many and in this last attempt, my 5 units in a flanking force are spawning far and too late.

The flanking force arrives about 2/3rds within the time limit (20 turns).
I calculate it will take them 5 turns (for 2 unchecked cavalry units) to reach the enemy Honjin (it's the same time it would take them to reach the back of the enemy center). Even if I wanted to use the other 3 units to attack the enemy flank, which is much closer, they will not be enough and will still arrive too late to save it.


On this flank my overpowered units can't win in one on one confrontation even when they are on the river tile and my lances are on the next tile in open terrain while the enemy is on the river tile. There's an enemy yari sam who got exposed and I attacked it on the flank with my cavalry unit. It got disrupted but it rallied the next turn and faced the cavalry which fell back. The infantry that was pinning this unit attacked it again from the flank and it got disrupted again. In the ensueing melee, my infantry unit was fragmented by this twice-disrupted enemy infantry unit and fell back.

This enemy infantry unit is now facing 2 cavalry units and another infantry unit and it's still standing (count: 4 units can't rout this unit in the open, 1 of their units routs mine fighting from the river tile).

In one instance I've seen enemy teppo resist cavalry charges and the subsequent melee long enough to be rescued and do mind they also resisted the SECOND charge (and ensueing melee).
They resisted for 2 turns. In other instances I've seen enemy ashigaru units routing mine at first contact via frontal charge and in one instance in particular, an enemy melee unit resisted 3 turns while fighting 3 different units of mine all on its frontal side. We will never know if it would have routed at the 4th melee turn because all of my units were routed by a single enemy who had come to the rescue.

Nothing really beats a teppo unit charged on its flank by cavalry that evades.
I don't comprehend how a foot soldier can be faster than a horse when hit on the flank. It appears to me that the Teppo runs away too far as if it wasn't paying the real wheeling-moving cost in movement points... which means next turn this teppo is free to do it again. It's almost as this unit type has a too great ease in evading cavalry which is not the same as evading infantry.

One may object that cavalry is faster because it moves further in the same turn than an infantry unit would... and I think here the problem is that cavalry is extremely slow in this game and I wouldn't mind giving it more movement points. It's got to be a lot faster than any light troops in the battlefield.

I think the game really really needs a rework of the campaign concepts regarding economics, supply and reinforcements but in the very short term, an instant check for balance in the Tenka Fubu.
Possibly it's too easy for the Oda and too hard for the Takeda because those limitations surely affect the Takeda a lot more than they do the Oda... that's what I observed on the player's end from both sides.

GShock112 wrote:Nothing really beats a teppo unit charged on its flank by cavalry that evades.
I don't comprehend how a foot soldier can be faster than a horse when hit on the flank. It appears to me that the Teppo runs away too far as if it wasn't paying the real wheeling-moving cost in movement points... which means next turn this teppo is free to do it again. It's almost as this unit type has a too great ease in evading cavalry which is not the same as evading infantry.

Bear in mind that the cavalry charge is taken as starting from the position the cavalry unit was in at the start of the turn. Although for technical reasons the evaders don't actually move until the cavalry reach the adjacent square, they are assumed to in reality start moving as soon as they see the cavalry start to move.

Thus, if the cavalry start their turn in the adjacent square to the evading infantry, they have a very high chance of catching them (in fact so high that the infantry may choose not to evade), but if they start their turn far away, the infantry have plenty of time to escape.

GShock112 wrote:the limitations on the campaign engine imposed on the front line armies that can't be reinforced

We have already discussed how the game currently allows reinforcements.

How would you prefer the game to allow reinforcements?

I know, I've considered that but do a test with the cavalry charging a teppo from different distances and auto-evasion.
Compare the distance covered by the Teppo during the evasion manouver and the one covered by the cavalry during the charge. It appears to me the Teppo run too far away on foot compared to how far the cav is coming from.
Also, other unit types REACTING (such as fall back) are always pinned with 0 AP in the next turn.

After evading, the Teppo can nonchalantly turn around and move again. I have nothing against that, it's a skirmisher, it is supposed to do that with the infantry but the way it evades cavalry is a totally different story.
They evade too easy, run too far and they still have their move unhindered for the next turn. In comparison, the cavalry, which is supposed to have the advantage of speed, when matched with infantry units seems to have a shorter movement than it should (in other words, it's very slow).

I know that's 2 different things but the cav is very slow, linked to the enemy ZOC and it doesn't have the maneverability it should have (for example, the about face is a lot easier to do for a cav than it is for an inf unit but in SJ if you do an about face with the cav, the turn for that unit is over).

Believe me I know things are very well balanced right now and that changes in this compartment would cascade on many things to be rebalanced.

GShock112 wrote:I know, I've considered that but do a test with the cavalry charging a teppo from different distances and auto-evasion.
Compare the distance covered by the Teppo during the evasion manouver and the one covered by the cavalry during the charge. It appears to me the Teppo run too far away on foot compared to how far the cav is coming from.

They run 3 squares plus or minus 1 square (random).
The cavalry move 4 squares plus or minus 1 square (random). (This is measured from their starting position at the start of the turn).

However, if they don't think they are likely to get away, they won't evade, so you are only seeing evades where they have a good chance of escaping.

They will, therefore, usually escape, because if they have a high chance of being caught they won't evade.

I know but that's to be connected with the cav speed... I think... too slow.
To answer to your Q about the reinforcements (I thought it was in a different thread so I was surprised to see your Q while I was posting my own): there is a gold mine to be dug out of the campaign.

Events, surprise attacks, diplomacy, revolts, recoinassance, reinforcements, supply, loyalty... and much much more could fit in the campaign very easily with "cards". So the player could pick X cards at the beginning of the month and use Y cards before making a move and at the end of the turn the cards are discarded. I'm thinking about something easy to blend with what we have now so that the battle system remains on top but so that the player has choices to make that expand the strategic scenario of the campaign.

Dunno... it's just an idea in a very embryo phase.

Since what's happening now is basically connected (same campaign, just from the Takeda side), I'm using the same thread.

After pulling off a total miracle at Gifu I was still pushed back so it's an unchanged situation with me having won 2, captured 1 territory and still at slight disadvantage. The Oda are actually much stronger than the Takeda, it's a historical fact, so there's no call about re-balancing and this campaign is perfect as it is: you make ONE mistake with the Takeda and you'll most likely lose the battle.

Still, while being outnumbered I pulled my swordsmen in the woods, they are less disordered by the woods than the enemy yari so with one swordsman unit I pinned TWO enemy units (one yari, one not yari) and when a second unit entered the woods I engaged with a second swordsman unit. During the ensueing melee, my cavalry, which took TWO TURNS TO CHARGE despite being basically at handreach, sidecharged this RONIN unit and disrupted it. 2 of mine vs 1 of them disrupted and they fought the WHOLE battle (the ronin nonchalantly rallied but in the end they did rout). So you see, having units that can face one another like... forever is not a good idea. Works the same with fortifications and it's an easy exploit to do for a player. Without this exploit (plus the other swordsman + cavalry) I would have lost the flank, totally overrun... which means, lost the battle... that's why at some point in time, units that touch one another should auto-engage. There has to be a way... an auto melee starting without a charge, just the eventual wheeling required. I'm saying I had an archer unit shoot on my immobile swordsman for the whole battle. So yes, now that I think of it, I actually pinned THREE enemy units with that trick, waiting for me just outside the woods (yeah, right, not for 1 million dollars!) for the entire battle. My cavalry in the woods actually routed those two units coming out from the other side of those woods.

My reinforcements came in 2 sets and it took them 4 turns to get to battle. The cavalry which is supposedly much faster than the light infantry, just arrived one turn sooner... and I was still lucky I hadn't pushed to the middle of the battlefield but was rather close to my side, something like 8 squares ahead of my honjin (left as is, in deployment phase).



So that's the problem, cavalry is basically using the same movement rules as everyone else, it's just got more movement points but seemingly too few. The black arrows indicate the maximum distance the 2 reinforcements could reach in one turn. Terrain being the same for the two, the ashigaru have the same speed as the Cav who are handicapped. In open terrain if I am not mistaken the cav are slightly faster but only just.

When you factor such a little advantage against their low maneuverability, the cavs will always have extreme difficulties at doing flanking manouvers.

If something goes wrong, the best they can do to avoid the enemy is fall back (1 square) while the about face (180° wheel) basically ends their movement. This is not the manouverability of a cav unit, it's exactly the same of an inf unit but at least we see the cav is a lot stronger in melee than it should be. Especially against spears in the front.

The speed advantage of the hoof is laughable if the teppo can avoid it so easy. What you can really see is that the starting distance of the cav from the teppo is almost identical in most circumstances to the ending distance of the cav from the teppo AFTER the evade manouver. In other words, they move at the same speed. Again Cav doesn't have the advantage.

Just minor details since the balance is there but worth mentioning. It looks like every battle is a great battle... every battle beats the record of the previous greatest battle... but it's exactly how it is: 54%-52% for me. Big battle, big battle as usual and I can already tell the next will be even better.

I said many times every battle I fight, I win by pure chance at the last moment and it could end either way. Every battle is a record of "the greatest battle so far" isn't that how I finished my previous post?
What did I say... that I knew that record would be beaten... didn't I?

Here's the battle after that one.



My Honjin is dispersed just 20 seconds after this screenshot but by the grace of Bin Gates I make it and win (12.000 vs 14.000 ended as Takeda losing 3500 and Oda 8800). 60%-58%
ONE of my units routed or ONE rally in favor of the AI and it would have been a crushing defeat.

Despite all the things that could be changed or done better (all minor), the game in its battle system is just A BLAST and its creator nothing but a genius.
I can't imagine what it could be with a full commitment to the campaign features that also put the player in the perspective of the Daimyo: something more to do, choices to take aside from moving/raising/splitting armies.

This is the situation now.



Save Okazaki or risk the siege in Anotsu!?

Mama mia, mama mia ... what a game... what a game... what a game... what a game... what a game... what a game!!!!