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impact on 2nd rank
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:32 am
by hazelbark
I know i saw this posted before.
But a non-eligible flank charge hits the corner of a line. Stepping forward to strike elements D and H.
........\
ABCD\
EFGH\
Is this two bases vs two bases on impact? Or 1 on 1?
There is a reference that you can't hit "h" as elements already in close combat can't be hit via impact except in a legal flank or rear charge.
Now if H is a 2nd rank of crossbows, does that change anything?
Re: impact on 2nd rank
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:14 am
by lawrenceg
hazelbark wrote:I know i saw this posted before.
But a non-eligible flank charge hits the corner of a line. Stepping forward to strike elements D and H.
........\
ABCD\
EFGH\
Is this two bases vs two bases on impact? Or 1 on 1?
There is a reference that you can't hit "h" as elements already in close combat can't be hit via impact except in a legal flank or rear charge.
Now if H is a 2nd rank of crossbows, does that change anything?
From the FAQ:
iii) CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE
What POAs are used?
The normal POAs are used as if the charge had contacted the front of the enemy file. Thus, for example, if the 3rd rank
base of a 4 rank deep pikemen battle group is contacted, the pikemen use their normal POAs for 3 ranks deep pikemen
and for the 4th rank.
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:45 am
by hammy
The best way to visualise what has happenend is that the BG being charged does not just stand totally still in a situation like this. It will respond to the charge either with a counter charge or a slight turn. The end result is that the charge hits the front of the BG and the fight works as normal.
If this rule wasn't there people would forever be trying to get advantage from silly angled charges that just clip a base or hit the edge of a BG rather than the front, something that FoG has done a very good job of removing from the game.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:37 am
by frederic
So 2 dices vs 2 dices if 2 ranks and 4 dices vs 4 dices if more than 2 ranks, right ?
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 pm
by hammy
frederic wrote:So 2 dices vs 2 dices if 2 ranks and 4 dices vs 4 dices if more than 2 ranks, right ?
If 2 bases of the charged BG are contacted then 4 dice per side (2 per base) but all of them are fought with the same POA's you would get if you charged the front of the BG being charged.
Consider:
Where i are impact foot hitting the front corner of pike P. The first and second rank bases of P are contacted by two different bases of the impact foot i. The resulting impact is 4 dice to each side on an even POA (both count ++ against foot).
Re: impact on 2nd rank
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:56 pm
by hazelbark
lawrenceg wrote:hazelbark wrote:I know i saw this posted before.
From the FAQ:
Thanks
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:12 pm
by hazelbark
hammy wrote:
If this rule wasn't there people would forever be trying to get advantage from silly angled charges that just clip a base or hit the edge of a BG rather than the front, something that FoG has done a very good job of removing from the game.
I am for this.
...\
SS\\
SS\
XX
So where you hit the first two bases in impact you fight 2 bases to 2 bases with POAs as if you had hit in the front. Makes sense.
Further question 1:
So if there is a 3rd rank of supporting LF. They would get 1 die, because you are counting as if you had two frontal contacts?
Further question 2:
So if you just had two ranks and they were the swedish heavy weapon front and crossbow 2nd rank. I get you use the POAs from the front. But do you use the dice here of 2+1 supporting rank?
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:39 pm
by hammy
The first further question is easy, you would get one dice for one or two LF so it doesn't change things.
Where the second rank are arhers things get a bit odd. I think that the defender would get 2 shooting dice and 4 melee dice as you count as if you had 'hit the front rank'
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:47 pm
by hazelbark
I can see the 4 +2 dice. Perhaps if the authors agree the FAQ ought to say POAs and dice as if hit in the front rank.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:12 pm
by babyshark
hammy wrote:The first further question is easy, you would get one dice for one or two LF so it doesn't change things
Hmmm. How many dice for three LF? Assume that a three-wide HF+LF BG receives a standard, garden-variety frontal charge from a BG of KN. Do the LF contribute two shooting dice (rounding up on 1 dice per 2 bases) or one shooting dice? I thought I knew the answer, but now am confused. Which happens more often than I would like.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:29 pm
by frederic
hammy wrote:frederic wrote:So 2 dices vs 2 dices if 2 ranks and 4 dices vs 4 dices if more than 2 ranks, right ?
If 2 bases of the charged BG are contacted then 4 dice per side (2 per base) but all of them are fought with the same POA's you would get if you charged the front of the BG being charged.
Consider:
Where i are impact foot hitting the front corner of pike P. The first and second rank bases of P are contacted by two different bases of the impact foot i. The resulting impact is 4 dice to each side on an even POA (both count ++ against foot).
What about the shooting dices at impact if P are Bowmen instead of Pikemen ?
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:42 pm
by lawrenceg
babyshark wrote:hammy wrote:The first further question is easy, you would get one dice for one or two LF so it doesn't change things
Hmmm. How many dice for three LF? Assume that a three-wide HF+LF BG receives a standard, garden-variety frontal charge from a BG of KN. Do the LF contribute two shooting dice (rounding up on 1 dice per 2 bases) or one shooting dice? I thought I knew the answer, but now am confused. Which happens more often than I would like.
If you look at the table for dice in the impact phase on page 92 you will see that LF shooting from a 2nd or 3rd rank get 1 dice per base (not 1 dice per 2 bases). Then they lose 1 dice per 2.
So three LF get three dice, of which they lose 1 out of each lot of 2.
There is only one lot of 2 in 3 dice so they lose 1 dice.
Hence they end up with 2 dice.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:53 pm
by babyshark
lawrenceg wrote:If you look at the table for dice in the impact phase on page 92 you will see that LF shooting from a 2nd or 3rd rank get 1 dice per base (not 1 dice per 2 bases). Then they lose 1 dice per 2.
So three LF get three dice, of which they lose 1 out of each lot of 2.
There is only one lot of 2 in 3 dice so they lose 1 dice.
Hence they end up with 2 dice.
Riiiight. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Marc
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:16 am
by hazelbark
babyshark wrote:
Riiiight. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
pointing you in ANY direction would be an improvement.
