Slitherine

If an 8 stand Pike unit changes into orb, and is subsequently shot with missile fire, how many bases are counted for calculating Hits per Base?

Thanks

Mark

Hmm, I may have stumbled on the answer to the other question I posted about Orbs.

Orb formation, p.122, says (last bullet, 5th dash, sorry if that sounds too cryptic.)

"Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases."

I was wondering what this sentence meant, now I have a better idea (still a bit confused tho.)

So, I think it means half of the bases in the BG are counted for HpB in missle fire. This would make sense to me but I admit that I might be misreading it.

JF

Despite its peculiar situation an Orb has a front and rear, no matter how many dice it actually gets to use in combat. So as the frontage is two files, all orbs use either the number of bases or 6, whatever is lower. Shooting is an effective weapon against orbs.

6 base BGs are the most succesful Orbers, as they fight as if they were 8 base strong, are not more vulnerable to shooting, and ideally could roll more dice than bases they have in melee, if fully surrounded (2 dice per side).

In some forty games I have attempted to adopt orb twice, and succeeded once (Byzantine spearmen with ghilmans on two flanks). It was shot up but lasted enough to get one of the Ghilman BGs charged by Kataphraktoi and run down. None of my opponents have tried to adopt Orb.

José

hercimurthemediocre wrote:Hmm, I may have stumbled on the answer to the other question I posted about Orbs.

Orb formation, p.122, says (last bullet, 5th dash, sorry if that sounds too cryptic.)

"Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases."

I was wondering what this sentence meant, now I have a better idea (still a bit confused tho.)

So, I think it means half of the bases in the BG are counted for HpB in missle fire. This would make sense to me but I admit that I might be misreading it.

JF

No - the rule you quote is about how many are facing in each direction - for the purposes of close combat, I don't see how you get from that to half the bases couning.

All the bases are in the first three ranks of the formation - no base, even if it were a 12 base BG, has more than 2 bases in front of it. Therefore ALL bases count.

jre wrote:Despite its peculiar situation an Orb has a front and rear, no matter how many dice it actually gets to use in combat. So as the frontage is two files, all orbs use either the number of bases or 6, whatever is lower. Shooting is an effective weapon against orbs.

6 base BGs are the most succesful Orbers, as they fight as if they were 8 base strong, are not more vulnerable to shooting, and ideally could roll more dice than bases they have in melee, if fully surrounded (2 dice per side).

In some forty games I have attempted to adopt orb twice, and succeeded once (Byzantine spearmen with ghilmans on two flanks). It was shot up but lasted enough to get one of the Ghilman BGs charged by Kataphraktoi and run down. None of my opponents have tried to adopt Orb.

José

I don't think you can count more bases than you have - I think the rule just says the maximum you can use in each direction.
An orb has 4 fronts and 4 internal rears - in reality none of its facings is any different to the others.

I'm sorry, but I don't exactly understand.

I'm not saying that I was right, necessarily, but I'm still wondering what "Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases" means.

So, bottom line that you count the front three ranks for the purpose of HpB and shooting.
(I guess the use of the word "front" is where I'm getting this from.)

I was exploring the possibility that since half the BG in orb is facing the opposite way of the other half, it would make sense to me if only half of the bases in the BG could be counted as being in the front three ranks.

Also, from the standpoint of wasting print, it would give some significance to "Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases," which as of yet I can see no other point in printing this in the rules.

Sorry if I'm being overly technical on this. I've done Orb wrong in every game that it's been used and would like to get it right.

If a BG charges the front of a 6 base orb, only one base will fight on impact, even if formally it contacts two bases, because a 6 base Orb has 2 bases fighting in any direction (quarter of 6, rounded up), half of which, that is, one, in the front rank. That is what that rule explains.

In the melee phase the Orb gets 2 bases, while the attacker also gets to use a single file, as there is only a single front edge base and no overlaps. So usually 2 dice vs 2 dice.

If the Orb was 10 or 12 bases strong it would get three bases in all directions, two of them front rank (10/4 round up: 3; 3/2 round up: 2). So a charger would get to use 2 bases in impact, and two files in melee. 3 dice vs 4 dice usually, which is why I say that small orbs are better than big ones, besides the missile vulnerability that I stick with.

José

hercimurthemediocre wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't exactly understand.

I'm not saying that I was right, necessarily, but I'm still wondering what "Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases" means.

So, bottom line that you count the front three ranks for the purpose of HpB and shooting.
(I guess the use of the word "front" is where I'm getting this from.)

I was exploring the possibility that since half the BG in orb is facing the opposite way of the other half, it would make sense to me if only half of the bases in the BG could be counted as being in the front three ranks.

Also, from the standpoint of wasting print, it would give some significance to "Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases," which as of yet I can see no other point in printing this in the rules.

Sorry if I'm being overly technical on this. I've done Orb wrong in every game that it's been used and would like to get it right.

The significance is that it says how many are facing in EACH of the four fronts, and of those how many are in the front rank - so can be contacted by enemy.

SO for your BG of 8 Pikemen.
2 are still facing the orrigonal front, of these only one is a front rank enemy. This means if you are charged from this direction you will have only 1 base in contact in the impact phase so it will be 2 dice vs 2 dice.
2 are facing the orrigonal right of these only one is a front rank enemy. This means if you are charged from this direction you will have only 1 base in contact in the impact phase so it will be 2 dice vs 2 dice.
If you are charged so you are hit on both the front and the right edge you will fight with 2 front rank bases and 2 second rank bases.

Ok,

Understand now

Keeping in mind that in impact the chargers can only fight with the same number of stands as the BG being charged.

Sorry if I seemed dense, forgot about front rank as it relates to impact.



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I've played quite a few games and I've never seen anyone form orb yet.

Has anyone used this formation?

How was it for you?

Pete

I've used it, but incorrectly and it did poorly. It seemed no better than staying in regular formation and getting charged in the flank.

If used correctly, I can see that it would instead delay the inevitable a bit. If you had 2-3 battle groups bearing down on you and you knew that you'd get charged in the flank and/or rear, then I'd say that forming an Orb would be your best chance at hanging on for a few more turns.

I also wondered if it would be a good way to back away from the enemy without presenting your rear to them. This I have never tried and don't really plan to. But if the situation calls for it, then who knows ...

It is a lot better than getting charged in the flank, especially for a group of 8 spearmen

Charged in the flank gives you
Impact phase
drop cohesion level
2 dice each, --POA
likely hood of dropping another cohesion

Melee phase
2 dice vs 4 or 6 depending on size of flank attack
if opponent has swd then they get +POA as you are no longer steady spear/pike
if attacked from front as well -POA for fighting in two directions

Orb
Impact phase
stay steady
2 dice each
you get no POA but if attackers have swd then they don't get a POA for it as you are steady

Melee phase
2 dice each, no overlaps
no -POA for fiighting in two directions

On the whole, if your end of line spear/pike is about to get front and flank attacked, get into orb, you give up some initiative but at least survive for a bit longer. Do remember that you can only do this in the restricted area if you are already in a two wide column as you can't contract in there