Slitherine

what are shooty cavalry actually scared of (apart from the table edge:))
can anyone suggest a good army for beating the stuffing out of them?

I thought the Komnenan did quite well

I am not sure I would like to face an early Ostrogoth with a shooty cavalry army.

Something like:

IC,TC,TC,TC
2 * 4 Superior armoured cavalry lancer swordsmen
7 * 4 Superior protected cavalry lancer swordsmen
3 * 8 light foot bow
1 * 6 light foot bow

Everything moves 5 MU, initiative +4, lots of shock cavalry.

Actually as you hit the Armoured cavalry on 4+ and the Protected on 3+ when shooting that isn't too bad a match up for a shooty cavalry army - they are also Undrilled.

Drilled stuff you need a 5+ to hit are a different matter ...

Yes, but if the shooty cav are single rank, why not go single rank with the protected lancers?

Also, chasing shooty cav seems like a job for lt. spear cavalry who might opt for single rank anyway.

My experience running shooty cav teaches me that I can't count on targets failing cohesion tests (especially when pesky ICs and rear supporters are around.)

What I can count on is my opponent eventually charging himself into a pickle and lt. spear cavalry doesn't have to worry about charging without orders.

JF

The idea is that the bulk of the lancers work in single rank with the light foot providing covering fire as required.

The nice thing about lancers over light spear cavalry is that they don't need a CMT to charge if disrupted so you get plenty of opportunities to bolster them.

Darned if you don't learn something new every day!

On second though ...

Shhh, Hammy, you're ruining my fiendish ploy.

BTW, from my experience, MF bowmen are no pushovers for shooty cav either. It's admittedly a bit risky for the MF, but I've had them shoot me to fragmented and then had the nerve to charge me. It created a bit of a "cascade" and I believe my opponent felt quite vindicated. I now proceed with a bit more caution here and I don't move in on MF bows until I know that I can bring in enough dice to make it an even shot (statisticly.)

One of the more attractive aspects of shooty cav for me is that I can tie up a fairly expensive BG with a rather cheap one. MF bows are roughly equivalent in points. However, it's certainly not a slam dunk and there's no assurance of "beating the stuffing" out of them.

Getting back to the original question of what's a good army to accomplish this, I don't know really. If you're talking tournament play, my biggest fear playing shooty cav is that I'll be able to finish the game (shooting up a well deployed and manuevered army takes time.) Taking or building an army to kill shooty cav may be like choosing scissors to assure you'll beat paper (watch out for rocks that fall your way.) Believe it or not, the armies I have done worst against are Macedonian type pike armies. Especially those with an IC.

Man, I feel like I am betraying my shooty cav bretheren.

JF

I'll happily fight single ranked Undrilled Protected lancer Cv with ghilman type shooty cavalry - less good shooty cavalry have to think about it.

Actually one thing that will be of significant import on such a game is the terrain which tends to hurt the lancers far more than shooty cavalry as Lancer does not count in anything that isn't good going.

I suppose horsed archers are afraid of running out of arrows but there's no chance of that in FoG (alas).

It's a cowardly way to fight a battle all that shooting then running away. Very sensible and very effective but cowardly and unsporting to boot. It's almost as bad as hiding in the woods.

next bit - how about a balanced army to take on shooty cav.
a wall of knights / lancers will do the job. but then they will do the job on most things that get in front of them.
How about something that can take on both shooty cav and knights?
I think light spear cav may be the best choice, but they will probably still get blatted by the knights even if they hit a flank.

Quintus wrote:

It's a cowardly way to fight a battle all that shooting then running away. Very sensible and very effective but cowardly and unsporting to boot. It's almost as bad as hiding in the woods.

Almost, but not quite

There's a certain joy in frustrating your opponent. Hopefully to the point of making him do something rash.

Don't forget, we pounce in the end on the cowards that run away from us "cowards."

JF

next bit - how about a balanced army to take on shooty cav.
a wall of knights / lancers will do the job. but then they will do the job on most things that get in front of them.
How about something that can take on both shooty cav and knights?
I think light spear cav may be the best choice, but they will probably still get blatted by the knights even if they hit a flank.

I have always found my Lydians do a good job. They have enough good Light Horse and Cavalry to deal with LH and pesky shooty cavalry, whilst the Armoured Spearmen can either cover frontage or deal with the knights.

Since you also have bucketfuls of very reasonable Light Foot, then if you win the PBI then you attack in the mountains!!!

Even on an open battlefield you aren't bothered that much, in fact you may want to lose the PBI roll so that you get a good 6" march with your heavy foot.

nikgaukroger wrote:I'll happily fight single ranked Undrilled Protected lancer Cv with ghilman type shooty cavalry - less good shooty cavalry have to think about it.

Still a bit risky on impact as they're on a +POA, so it can go pear-shaped easily. Problem is there's a lot more of them,
so you lose your flanks if you hang around, and skirmishing is dangerous.

Chariots can be awkward. HF can't catch you really, but good MF can be a problem.

I have found my mid period Serbs to be really good against any shooty army. 56 bases of armoured, superior, lancer cavalry and as many LF bow. The screen is always in front moving up with nobles close behind. They absorb the hits while dishing it out. Shoty cav have to get within 4MU's to be able to shoot. LF bow have 6MUs so its a case of choosing where your going to gang up and attempt some disruption. The moment cohesion starts going down, shooty cav opponent starts to worry about that wing. You got him. Then my nobles move in and disperse them like the wing, opponent looses any order he had and I start to pick them off. Also having 3 BGs of Cumans helps the shock cavalry immensly.

Shooty cav/LH dont worry me at all.

Turning the topic round a bit, has anyone found a way for an army with substantial numbers of protected HF (but not enough to fill the table), to beat, or at least not lose to, shooty cavalry?

lawrenceg wrote:Turning the topic round a bit, has anyone found a way for an army with substantial numbers of protected HF (but not enough to fill the table), to beat, or at least not lose to, shooty cavalry?

If you have a lot of proteceted foot but don't fill the table then you must have quite a bit of other stuff, either that or you are using a pike army.

Scotts Common for example can fill the table with rear support at 800 points.

hammy wrote:

lawrenceg wrote:Turning the topic round a bit, has anyone found a way for an army with substantial numbers of protected HF (but not enough to fill the table), to beat, or at least not lose to, shooty cavalry?

If you have a lot of proteceted foot but don't fill the table then you must have quite a bit of other stuff, either that or you are using a pike army.

Scotts Common for example can fill the table with rear support at 800 points.

I do have quite a bit of other stuff.

The army is Kyrenean Greek

4 x 8 and 1 x 6 HF protected Ospear
2 x 4 heavy chariot LS
1 x 4 cavalry drilled armoured lance/sword
1 x 6 MF protected Ospear
3 x 8 and 1 x 6 LF assorted bow, sling and javelin.
4 x TC

The LF at least can shoot back, but the rest of the army has little chance of catching anything it might beat.

I've only played 2 games (against shooty cavalry) with this composition so far, so I intend to see if I can find workable tactics before changing it (unless someone can point out a fundamental flaw). It can't change much because of the limited figures I have. Any tactical advice would be gratefully recieved.

I would have thought the chariots and lancers are not a bad threat to shooty cavalry. The key against shooty cavalry is not to charge when they are just in charge reach but to advance as close as possible before charging. If you can do that with lancers then the shooty cav have to stand or risk a 1/3 chance of being hit in the rear by your lancers. Also push past the shooty cavalry by foring back their light horse friends and then try to get behind them and stop their evade, that works quite well too.

You may find that an IC is better value than 2 TCs and 10 points of troops against shooty cabv too. The +2 on CTs for all troops within 12 MU is not to be sniffed at.