Slitherine

I was looking through the POA's recently and was wondering about the Bill/Halberd. The Bill/Halberd is a hybrid weapon which is basically a combination spear and 2 handed axe. It is placed in the heavy weapon category with the 2 handed swords and axes. The heavy weapon category receives no POA advantages during impact against cavalry which makes sense for 2 handed swords and axes. Yet a halberd/bill is also a spear which seems would provide impact protection against cavalry similar to spears and unlike 2 handed swords and axes. So I am wondering why the halberd/bill wasn't placed in a separate POA category having the POA advantages of both spear and heavy weapons? I am also wondering if it is possible to create a new POA combining the heavy weapon/spear POAs in the CombatTools file?

(Edited/Added): Basically a spear unit receives a +100 POA against mounted charges. A bill/halberd units does not receive that +POA and thus is much more vulnerable to impact cavalry charges even though a bill is also a spear.

Also I noticed that the sword melee POA gives a +100 POA against Pikes/spears, etc if they are not steady. It seems that heavy weapons should gain their melee advantage against Pikes/spears in the same situation...basically anytime pike kiels, and possibly spears, are disordered in any manner. As it is, the heavy weapons +100 melee POA never applies against pikes kiels at all. Although both spears/pike kiels lose their +100 melee POA if they are fractured or severely disordered against anybody and anything- no particular advantage to heavy weapons. The only real melee advantage I can see to heavy weapons vs pike kiels, etc is the cancellation of any armor advantages. I am sure there is a good rational but I was just wondering why heavy weapons weren't given the same advantage as swords against non-steady pikes/spears. From reading the modding corner, it appears this might be moddable in CombatTools also, yes?

Yes, it would be moddable in CombatTools.BSF. You would also need to create a new weapon capability column in the squads file. Also various strings for the UI.

Thanks. I think I will make that my weekend project. See if I can create a new POA for halberds and mod the heavy weapons to match the sword melee advantage against non-steady pikes/etc.

It really won't make much of a difference for Renaissance except English bills but would for Late Medieval.

I do wonder though, how effective the bill was vs cavalry (at impact, assume large formed units) ? The primary use of the bill by the English was vs other English armies which fought primarily dismounted. Later on in th e16th C, more and more pikes were introduced. Sure, a bill might be as long as a spear, 8 feet perhaps? but the billman likely was lightly armoured and had no shield. Thinking ahistorically, I can see perhaps a line of hoplites thwarting an anachronistic charge of barded gendarmes, but would the billmen hold firm? ( I will disclose I have always felt armor should count in impact too in these games, which is heresy)

One game mechanic not brought up is that pike units that have heavy weapons in them get an "overlap bonus" POA in melee. The exacts escape me but overlap implies that the unit is larger than its opponent.
One could probably mod that aspect to give heavy weapons a larger bonus, get rid of the need to "be larger" etc.

Anyways, I do agree that unlike the tabletop FOG and Ren rules, the PC can allow for more diversity as you don't need to memories charts etc. Having "short-hafted" heavy weapons and "long hafted" heavy weapons would be a nice supplement, although getting a balance between the two might be hard. You cant have strelets or Polish bardiche/musket men becoming the new shock troops!

Good luck modding and please share any results!

I do wonder though, how effective the bill was vs cavalry (at impact, assume large formed units) ? The primary use of the bill by the English was vs other English armies which fought primarily dismounted. Later on in th e16th C, more and more pikes were introduced. Sure, a bill might be as long as a spear, 8 feet perhaps? but the billman likely was lightly armoured and had no shield.

From what I am reading, the bill was typically 6 ft long. Normal spears, 6-8 ft long. Long spears around 10 ft long. A pike could be up to 25 feet long. So a bill is on the short side of a normal spear.

I noticed that the spear and pike POA's vs cavalry and cavalry vs Spear or Pike POA's are the same. Which makes me strongly suspect that the POA's are based on time appropriate opponents. When spears were common, they were effective against the same timeframe cavalry and the same for Pikes vs their timeframe cavalry. However a mid-medieval, normal lenght spear unit would probably be highly vulnerable against a late medieval/early renaissance knight/gendarme with their improved armor, barded horses and longer lances-although probably still effective against light/medium cavalry. So are there any spear units at all in the original Pike and Shot? If so, very rare. If not in the game, it is the value of the spear POAs are unimportant. I would bet the spear POA simply is not or very rarely used in Pike and Shot. The POA values are not really valid for the timeframe. Although if actually needed, should be substantially less than a pike POA. So my thoughts are that Bills, lacking impact POAs against cavalry, is probably appropriate compared to the Pike POAs. It is the spear POAs that seem off when compared to the Pike POA's. So I think the spears that show up in the War of the Roses mod should probably see a reduction of their POA advantages vs late medieval heavy cavalry. At least, those are my thoughts at the moment.

One game mechanic not brought up is that pike units that have heavy weapons in them get an "overlap bonus" POA in melee. The exacts escape me but overlap implies that the unit is larger than its opponent.
One could probably mod that aspect to give heavy weapons a larger bonus, get rid of the need to "be larger" etc.

No, I wasn't aware of those modifiers and I couldn't find them in the manual. Can you reference the overlap bonus.

Good luck modding and please share any results!

I looked at the code yesterday and looks like I can decipher it enough to mod the heavy weapons POA, create a new POA for the bill/halberd and spear POAs if it is actually needed. I am thinking changes might be appropriate for the War of the Roses mod as it contains substantial spear and bill units which are facing late medieval knights.

There is "Light Spear" and "Spearmen" classification.
Light spear is the non-cavalry defeating spear. Use that for your medieval spear?

HI, your right I couldn't find it in the manual but RBS explained it somewhere but I cannot find the post.


Gist is: units must be infantry, it must be larger than its melee opponent and either be warriors, or contain swords or heavy weapons. The POA advantage is modest: +15
the code is in combat.bfs
look for the strings
IDS_UI_INFO_MELEE_OVERLAP ( I believe the last string contains the actual mechanics)

You could likely add/modify the code so size is irrelevant, and or to give the bonus if a units w swords and or HW's is attacking a Pike unit that is not steady... The only easy thing at a glance to change is the POA haha.


I don't think there are any spear units in P&S , but there are some in the TT game. Although the POA is the same, pikes still have an advantage with kiel bonus. If they don't get the kiel they are then likely in mixed units and get the advantages of Protected pike, protected shot In many situations which "mixed" units of spears wouldn't get ( not that there are any anyhow).

jomni wrote:There is "Light Spear" and "Spearmen" classification.
Light spear is the non-cavalry defeating spear. Use that for your medieval spear?

The spear is still a good anti-cavalry weapon but maybe just not against the best of the best cavalry or heavy gendarme/knight of the time. You know the late medieval/early renaissance knight/gendarme with metal or leather barded horse and plated armor with 15 foot lance. So my current thoughts are to remove or reduce the spearmen +100 impact and +100 melee POA only against heavy lancers for War of the Roses. The +POA would still apply against all other cavalry.

Gist is: units must be infantry, it must be larger than its melee opponent and either be warriors, or contain swords or heavy weapons. The POA advantage is modest: +15
the code is in combat.bfs
look for the strings
IDS_UI_INFO_MELEE_OVERLAP ( I believe the last string contains the actual mechanics)

You could likely add/modify the code so size is irrelevant, and or to give the bonus if a units w swords and or HW's is attacking a Pike unit that is not steady... The only easy thing at a glance to change is the POA haha.

Thanks, I found it. Although in looking at the code, it appears to be the standard heavy weapon impact +100 POA modifier described in the manual. Maybe I missed something? I did find this towards the end of the section: "PrintStringIndexedX(1, test, "IDS_CAPABILITY", 10);" Is the 10 the number you are referencing?

Jagger2002 wrote:

Gist is: units must be infantry, it must be larger than its melee opponent and either be warriors, or contain swords or heavy weapons. The POA advantage is modest: +15
the code is in combat.bfs
look for the strings
IDS_UI_INFO_MELEE_OVERLAP ( I believe the last string contains the actual mechanics)

You could likely add/modify the code so size is irrelevant, and or to give the bonus if a units w swords and or HW's is attacking a Pike unit that is not steady... The only easy thing at a glance to change is the POA haha.

Thanks, I found it. Although in looking at the code, it appears to be the standard heavy weapon impact +100 POA modifier described in the manual. Maybe I missed something? I did find this towards the end of the section: "PrintStringIndexedX(1, test, "IDS_CAPABILITY", 10);" Is the 10 the number you are referencing?

Search for

"// Extra for Heavy Weapon, Swordsmen or Warriors of larger unit lapping round (does not apply if either unit is defending obstacle)." later in the function.

Ok, found it, thanks!