Slitherine

Japan, in the second half of the 16th century.

For two hundred years the central power of the Ashikaga Shogunate has been progressively eroded by rebellious local daimyo. Decades of struggles among the warlords have divided the country and now they verge upon open war.
With the succession to the shogunate in doubt and a nation in economic distress, it is a time of reckoning for the noble families and their retainers, the Samurai.
This is the time of great and ambitious lords, a time of honour and betrayal. This is the time of the nation at war.
This is the Sengoku Jidai!



Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent age. Developed in collaboration between Jayson Ng, an active member of the community, and Richard Bodley Scott, the mastermind behind Field of Glory and Pike & Shot, this title is a breath of fresh air in wargaming. The game’s intent is to reproduce with high fidelity the Japanese Way-of-War of that time, thanks to an efficient UI and deep gameplay. It builds on the highly successful predecessor Pike & Shot: Campaigns, adding some new features such as battlefield generals, interesting twists to the strategic campaigns system, fifteen historical battles from the Sengoku Jidai and the Imjin War, three historical campaigns, one sandbox campaign, and skirmish army lists from Japan, Korea, China, Manchuria and Mongolia covering the 16th and 17th centuries!

The game is coming out on Steam and on Slitherine on May 19th, and is currently on beta.

The "Yellow Dragon flag" in the first screenshot was the Qing Dynasty's flag and only came into use around 1882, or a few centuries after the game is set. It would be more appropriate to use one of the "Eight Banners" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Banners), used by Nurhaci around 1615.

I suggest using this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_Yellow_Banner , or the variant Yellow Banner that was used a couple of decades previously before they split it into Plain and Bordered versions.

- BNC

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:The "Yellow Dragon flag" in the first screenshot was the Qing Dynasty's flag and only came into use around 1882, or a few centuries after the game is set. It would be more appropriate to use one of the "Eight Banners" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Banners), used by Nurhaci around 1615.

I suggest using this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_Yellow_Banner , or the variant Yellow Banner that was used a couple of decades previously before they split it into Plain and Bordered versions.

- BNC

Thanks. It may be a bit complex for the resolution, and if you take away the complexity, it is pretty similar to the later flag.

Do you have any reliable information on Yuan dynasty flags? We struggled to find any authoritative information apart from the Mongol Invasion Scrolls, which do not clearly show any one dominant design.

rbodleyscott wrote:
Thanks. It may be a bit complex for the resolution, and if you take away the complexity, it is pretty similar to the later flag.

Do you have any reliable information on Yuan dynasty flags? We struggled to find any authoritative information apart from the Mongol Invasion Scrolls, which do not clearly show any one dominant design.

The red sun needs to go if we want to remove the Qing-ness of it

Mongol/Yuan Empire: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/mn-early.html

When the mongol empire was on the rise, each "tumen" (army in today's terminology), had its own flag, plus different flags to order different movements. The khan also had his personal one as well. At its peak there were close to 20 tumens, so that results in a lot of flags!

I would recommend the blue flag with the white circle and fire for a 'general' Yuan flag, or possibly the Yuan blue with the Mongol inscription used for Temur Khan (r.1294-1307). The Yuan dynasty did end in 1368 though, and "North Mongolia" wasn't anything more than a puppet nomad group.

- BNC

Point taken.

The plain yellow banner is already in place in the actual units. But only those that represent the bannermen. The problem is that the Plain Yellow Manchu banner co-existed with the other 7 banners plus Mongol banners and Han Banners, and Green Standard. It is not a national symbol. Agree, that Qing national symbol was a later concoction but we needed something to represent the whole faction so that one is the most identifiable one. The Manchu faction in the game is a bit complex, as it started off as Jurchen 8 banners, then became Manchu 8 banners with Mongol / Chinese axillary bannermen, then became the Qing Dynasty with both Bannermen and Green Standard Army.

The Mongol "fire-sun-moon symbol" on blue is already assigned to the pure Mongol faction of the 16th - 17th centuries. And I believe it was only used after the Yuan Dynasty as indicated in your link (Flags of the Mongol Empire). Again, the motifs in the suggested resource are already used by the actual Mongol units in the game. Like the Qing Dynasty, once the foreigners become rules of multi-ethnic China, they are not just seen as a racially pure faction any more. National identity gets blurred. There were no records of national flags for Chinese dynasties except for the Ming and Qing. We see a lot of red flags during the Yuan dynasty era as suggested by the link above (1310 specimen). And it had several variations with red / white / black circles, yin yang (which is now incorporated into the Mongol national symbol), some had inscriptions and Chinese characters. But the common theme we know is that has a red background.

jomni wrote: The Mongol "fire-sun-moon symbol" on blue is already assigned to the pure Mongol faction of the 16th - 17th centuries. And I believe it was only used after the Yuan Dynasty as indicated in your link (Flags of the Mongol Empire).

AFAIK It was being used from Genghis Khan's time.

jomni wrote:Point taken.

The plain yellow banner is already in place in the actual units. But only those that represent the bannermen. The problem is that the Plain Yellow Manchu banner co-existed with the other 7 banners plus Mongol banners and Han Banners, and Green Standard. It is not a national symbol. Agree, that Qing national symbol was a later concoction but we needed something to represent the whole faction so that one is the most identifiable one.

Seeing as 'Manchu' before 1644 was really Nurhaci (+ descendants) and his army rather than a nation the way Qing was, perhaps Nurhaci's personal banner could be the overall banner for Manchu? (http://www.eu4wiki.com/Manchu << EU4 uses something more in the direction of what I was thinking, and is more time-appropriate than the 19th century Qing, which IMO was very different to 16th/17th Manchu)

Still though, do what you think is best for the game. I don't want to get in the way too much

- BNC