Slitherine

taken into account for hits? This mainly bothers me for pike which work best in four ranks.

OhReally wrote:taken into account for hits? This mainly bothers me for pike which work best in four ranks.

Because everyone would use one-wide, 8 or 12 deep columns of pike against bowmen until contacting?

taken into account for hits? This mainly bothers me for pike which work best in four ranks.


The way the rules work you need to maximize your frontage of shooters to affect a BG, and this would allow deep infantry formations (perhaps unrealistically) to gain resistance to bow fire as in a big battleline less shooters will be shooting. It seams to work out OK balance wise - It still means that skirmishers on equal frontage to the pike would have to get 3 out of 3 hits.....best to protect your pike with your own skirmishers.

Ian

It's demoralizing to know that you are the arrow cushion protecting the guys safely in the back ranks, who are also most conveniently located to run away if things go badly and you need their support most.

IanB3406 wrote:taken into account for hits? This mainly bothers me for pike which work best in four ranks.


The way the rules work you need to maximize your frontage of shooters to affect a BG, and this would allow deep infantry formations (perhaps unrealistically) to gain resistance to bow fire as in a big battleline less shooters will be shooting. It seams to work out OK balance wise - It still means that skirmishers on equal frontage to the pike would have to get 3 out of 3 hits.....best to protect your pike with your own skirmishers.

Ian

I understand, but when your formation is ideal at four ranks to get your full POA's it just doesn't jive.

I remember the designers saying this was on purpose to take into account the greater vulnerability of deep pikemen formations and also of troops marching in column.

carlos wrote:I remember the designers saying this was on purpose to take into account the greater vulnerability of deep pikemen formations and also of troops marching in column.

What about the later ranks of pike holding their pikes up to break up missle fire?

This rule seems to only punish cheesy players and pike. I'm all for beating up the former if they are trying to exploit the rules, but fielding pikes four deep is what you are supposed to do so I don't get a rule that punishes them for this.

The rule probably won't change, I'm just wanting to know why it's there.

OhReally wrote:taken into account for hits? This mainly bothers me for pike which work best in four ranks.

If they didn't do this then you could form a massed column , where all your units are in column side by side.
You could never do enough hits on one unit to make it test if not for the "first three ranks" rule.

OhReally wrote:What about the later ranks of pike holding their pikes up to break up missle fire?

I've read that a lot of times in rules systems but can't believe it would work in practice. Honestly, think about it. How much does a piece of wood cover someone's head and shoulders? Having or not a shield is probably much more important than sticks hanging over your head.

carlos wrote:

OhReally wrote:What about the later ranks of pike holding their pikes up to break up missle fire?

I've read that a lot of times in rules systems but can't believe it would work in practice. Honestly, think about it. How much does a piece of wood cover someone's head and shoulders? Having or not a shield is probably much more important than sticks hanging over your head.

Typically the arrows were not shot in a straight trajectory, but were fired in the air and lobbed in. I'm a pretty good shot with my bow, but trying to lob arrows between a thousand upright sticks would be more a matter of luck than anything.

How it would work is that when any part of the arrow grazes or hits the 16' upraised stick part of the force would be lost from the impact and it would quite possible change the direction or trajectory of the arrow. I'm sure it didn't slow or stop all the arrows, but it's easy to picture how it cut down on succesful full force hits.

carlos wrote:I remember the designers saying this was on purpose to take into account the greater vulnerability of deep pikemen formations and also of troops marching in column.

Surely the simple solution would have been to add more dice to the mix, say 1 per rank after the third rank. Especially as you count dice per target.

That would certainly have stopped the ludicrous situation where a BG of 6 bow facing 3 BGs, all in single file, may as well wave flowers at the enemy rather than shoot them at 1 dice only since they have no chance of doing damage.

Effectively saying 10 units of 10 men will take less damage than 1 unit of 100 men occupying the same space, when shot at by the same number of arrows just because they are more units is a bit nonesense.

That would solve the deep rank vulnerability and stopped the cheese of watching undrilled troops charging in column of march and then using the manouevre phase to form the line.

stenic

stenic wrote:

carlos wrote:I remember the designers saying this was on purpose to take into account the greater vulnerability of deep pikemen formations and also of troops marching in column.

Surely the simple solution would have been to add more dice to the mix, say 1 per rank after the third rank. Especially as you count dice per target.

That would certainly have stopped the ludicrous situation where a BG of 6 bow facing 3 BGs, all in single file, may as well wave flowers at the enemy rather than shoot them at 1 dice only since they have no chance of doing damage.

Effectively saying 10 units of 10 men will take less damage than 1 unit of 100 men occupying the same space, when shot at by the same number of arrows just because they are more units is a bit nonesense.

That would solve the deep rank vulnerability and stopped the cheese of watching undrilled troops charging in column of march and then using the manouevre phase to form the line.

stenic

Or write in the rules that I can liver kick the crap out of the fat geek who pulls that stunt

stenic wrote:That would certainly have stopped the ludicrous situation where a BG of 6 bow facing 3 BGs, all in single file, may as well wave flowers at the enemy rather than shoot them at 1 dice only since they have no chance of doing damage.

Damage no, but they get a shot at each BG, 2 shots at one of them, and a single hit is all that is needed to force a cohesion test since only the first 3 ranks count. A decent shot at 3 cohesion tests is not bad!

OhReally wrote:Or write in the rules that I can liver kick the crap out of the fat geek who pulls that stunt

Thin people pull stunts too.

carlos wrote:

OhReally wrote:Or write in the rules that I can liver kick the crap out of the fat geek who pulls that stunt

Thin people pull stunts too.

It's more fun to liver kick fat people though as the fat ripples like the ocean and they tend to cry.

OhReally wrote: It's more fun...

Tone it down a bit, please. Getting a bit over the top, and off-topic...

Also the pike despite being the best open terrain weapon ( ++ in impact and melee usually ) costs 0 points.

I think this gets balanced by the fact that you need to pay for a 4th line to get full benefit that will not count towards hits per base..

All in all I think it is a very carefully planned concept that makes the system work as I would expect ancient clash between pike a legion for example to be...

It is clearly not an overlook but it has a very specific purpose in simulation dynamics.

Francisco

Seldon wrote:Also the pike despite being the best open terrain weapon ( ++ in impact and melee usually ) costs 0 points.

I think this gets balanced by the fact that you need to pay for a 4th line to get full benefit that will not count towards hits per base..

All in all I think it is a very carefully planned concept that makes the system work as I would expect ancient clash between pike a legion for example to be...

It is clearly not an overlook but it has a very specific purpose in simulation dynamics.

Francisco

For the multiple pike units that can ONLY be 0-8 though that makes it a tad rough.

I don't really agree that it is tough, all in all points for effectivness I still think pikes are tougher than other units. I know I've enjoyed the good benefits of these troops in my army so I wouldn't complay that they are treated in an unfair way.

but opinions are opinions

cheers
Francisco

Seldon wrote:I don't really agree that it is tough, all in all points for effectivness I still think pikes are tougher than other units. I know I've enjoyed the good benefits of these troops in my army so I wouldn't complay that they are treated in an unfair way.

but opinions are opinions

cheers
Francisco

If I were to field a 0-8 superior pike unit at 8 bases in 2x4, how many shooting hits would it take to cause a cohesion test? A four man LH unit being able to javelin/bow a 8 man superior pike unit down in morale seems a tad silly I'm sorry.

"My King, I know we have served you through hellish bloody battle for the last decade, wading through death and gore and represent the most elite of your phalanx. We bear the scars of many battles and have faced down stampeding cavalry, hails of arrows, and giant elephants, but those couple of dudes threw some sticks that could not possibly actually kill someone so we got scared..."

The rules do be the rules, but at some point things get hit with an "erratta stick," or FoG version 2.0 will come out down the line so I see no harm in whining like a pansy about things that tweak my "dat math don't be makin' no sense Willis" meter into overdrive!

Anyhow everyone have a great weekend.