Slitherine

Hi, I was wondering why winged hussars are so lame against sweden cuirassiers? Historically, swedish cavalry was no match for polish hussars so it's quite odd for me. I'm aware of many myths around winged hussars, and they wasn't invincible all the time but it's simply strange to me that on Kokenhausen battle my cavalry gets stuck and wiped out after some fighting. Historically charge was devastating, inflicting enourmous amount of casualties among swedish forces. I have some further notes: cuirassier armor is x2 better than winged hussar, why? Also I cannot understand why cuirassiers get +50 bonus POA armor in melee. Both sides fight in melee with pistols, so pistols should eliminate bonus from armor, don't they penetrate it? They are shooting from very close distance so c'mon...

I havent played Kokenhausen in some time but I dont recall the Swedes having Kuirassiers ( ie the 3/4 armoured guys), just a alot of other cavalry, but I could be wrong. Certainly the skirmish list limit the Swedes to maybe one or two Livonian Kuriassiers.

I agree the Husaria are underarmoured in the game. Husaria armor appears to me to me somewhat more than breast-backplate-bridle arm and helmet 33 "armoured rating" they recieve, but certainly not as good the 66 of heavy 3/4 kuirassier armour. Seems especially odd as the Pancerni ( with mail hauberks and head gear) have the same ingame protection, 33...
A 50 rating seems to be a good compromise...

Swedes have 5 units of cuirassiers in Kokenhausen vs 4-6 (depends on player choice) winged hussars. After third try I manage to score 57% to 61% but its kind of pyrrhic victory. Husaria can easily destroy mounted arquebuisers, but with cuirassiers they have a problem. All depends on initial charge, if they fail to disrupt cuirassiers during first charge, they will loose because of tedious fighting. Kurrasiers rarely got disrupted after first charge so there is the problem.

Siwy89 wrote:Swedes have 5 units of cuirassiers in Kokenhausen vs 4-6 (depends on player choice) winged hussars. After third try I manage to score 57% to 61% but its kind of pyrrhic victory. Husaria can easily destroy mounted arquebuisers, but with cuirassiers they have a problem. All depends on initial charge, if they fail to disrupt cuirassiers during first charge, they will loose because of tedious fighting. Kurrasiers rarely got disrupted after first charge so there is the problem.

The game is pretty moddable. Sometime I too feel cavalry combat can grind on in the melee phase. One thing I someday intend to mod (if I can) are the cohesion tests for mounted on mounted combat, perhaps the loser suffers additional -1 mal modifier soley based on mtd vs mtd as the criteria. Should help those combat resolve a little faster. It would reflect the fact that because cavalry generally fight as individuals in sustained melee combat, they would degnerate into mobs in a short period of time and be mre likley to look to get the heck out of the action (ie rout)
Well, at least it sems like a good idea but only testing would determine if it makes a mess of gameplay.

As for Husaria specifically, it would be very easy to up their armour, experience etc to make them more effective. You could alo give them swords over pistols which would make make any targets they disrupt on impact even MORE vulnerable to quick routs ( as most in theme enemy would have pistol as melee weapon), although if they fail to disrupt the husaria would then be at a distinct disadvantage which doenst seem too historical ( you would basicaly need to then depend on them withdrawing if they dont distupt enemy on impact, not always possible and out of your hands anyways)

Interesting ideas. It would be nice for Husaria to withdraw (disengage) more often when charge is not successful. They did that quite a lot, e.g. battle of Klushino, when there were several charges and withdrawings on single target (in controlled manner). I don't know if it's possible in game mechanics. I would keep pistols, you explained why Must confront Husaria with other targets- horses without armor and pistols in melee should be shattered to pieces.

They should use +100 POA vs everything for a first time they charge. Not sure if is possible to mode something like this, one time use item, to model they break able long lances.

They already get a 100 POA vs pretty much any "in theme" enemy mounted unit....
Actually, pure logic alone dictates they SHOULDNT get a 100 POA vs Kuirassiers (heavy armoured impact pistol horse) but should be down a 100 POA. This is due to: husaria are basically heavy cavalry using lances. 16th century knights were basically heavy cavalry using lances... In game Gendarmes (Heavy lancer) lose to Kuirassiers and thus husaria should lose too for the same historical reasons, deep formations of multiple ranks of pistols tended to fracture more linear formations of lancers, the deadliness of pistol at point blank range being well documented . But again, I don't think the game was designed to portray ahistorical jousting duels between Radzwill and Francis the ist

That's some common miss conception. Those was not gendarmers. They was somehow more agile while being still heavy and they used special lance that was lighter and far longer then counterparts.
And they indeed used repeated charges tactic as well. 1000 Hussars defeated 4000 carbine and pistol armed Swedish cavalry at Kokonhusen 1601.

Alma69 wrote:That's some common miss conception. Those was not gendarmers. They was somehow more agile while being still heavy and they used special lance that was lighter and far longer then counterparts.
And they indeed used repeated charges tactic as well. 1000 Hussars defeated 4000 carbine and pistol armed Swedish cavalry at Kokonhusen 1601.

I'm not sayng they were gendarmes, however they were lancers and they fought in more linear formations than the heavily armoured Kurisassiers in 3/4 armour with pistols fighting in deep ranks. If the knights of the late 16th c met their match vs Kuirasiers ( whom were willing to wade in to close combat) why would lighter lances (whether they were longer than a gendarmes heavy lance is questionable) and lighter equipment in general sudenly make them superior?

Is not questionable at all, hussar lance was longer 4.5m-6.2m, as had special construction. It was hollow inside, so that allowed to make it far longer then standard, but it was one use weapon, expected to be broken on contact.
Hussar strange was not only unique equipment like kopia or koncerz, but train level and rules of engagement and special horse. They used loss formation advancing to enemy, softening enemy fire and then just before last charge order, they closed formation to a knee to knee level very close formation and charged in at canter speed.
Other cavalry units was capable to doing this at no where near level of formation quality and even then just at trot speed level.
Hussars was capable to disengage from the enemy with easy if the first charge did not break enemy formation and repeat it again multiple times without losing cohesion and circling around. Unit was divided in companies charging in waves, so if first wave would break formation rest would join the fight finishing off, if enemy hold, first wave would withdraw and the second already ready to charge with fresh and unbroken lances. No unit could hold something like that for long. Seams here lies hussars unmatched battle results for their times.
Gandarms would be slower easier targets and once they charged they would be done bogged down in melee, mingled where they would find themselves on disadvantage with enemy pistols in deep ranks.

Anyway.
Is possible to mode lets say 2 time use additional bonus for them? Lets say +50.

We are talking about the differnce betwen Husaria vs deep formations of Kuirassiers and Knights vs deep formations of Kuriassiers, right?

I have never heard of knights "trotting" into battle

The rather small difference in horse speed likley wouldnt matter since The kuirsaiers were holding back pistol shot til point blank range any how ( its what differentiated them from lessor cavalry that tried to stop enemy cavalry charges w long range fire)

I just fail to see how Husaria could do any better than knights vs deep formations of QUALITY pistoleers since, as De La Noue attests, the very deep fromations of Kuirassiers, the fact that they moved slowly into combat( and thus kept their rigid deep formation intact) meant any lancers attacking(in shallow formation) would be brolen up as they just could not slam into such a deep body of armoured men and break it up as there would be no room for the attacking knight ( or husaria) to go, whether be at cantor or trot or gallop. Any succesful lancers that did get into the formation would be shot down. Every contemporary suggest that such combat was very deadly and rapidly over due to the # of ranks with multiple pistols...

Husaria were fantastic troops but most of thier victories over western style cavalry appear to have been against more "shooty attitude " types of cavalry where the tactics you explain seem like they could work ( and vs infantry even as well)


Cheers man

Husaria was "made" mostly for eastern enemies- tattars, ottoman, wallachian, moldovan or moscovite cavalry. They have to use faster horses- in fight with western cavalry it gave them advantage of more maneuver. With that kind of swift charge they manage to brake livonian's cuirassiers in Kokenhausen, or swedish reiters in Kircholm https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 1605_I.JPG as you can see here. This painting shows even direct charge of husaria against pike and shot unit which happened very rarely that time Winged hussars beat cuirassiers also in e.g. battle of Trzciana (Battle of Honigfelde in Sweden'h history), but that victory was more likely because of sudden, unexpected flank charge, Gustavus almost died in that battle. There are several examples of husaria beating caracole style reiters. Still, cuirassiers were tougher enemies. I wouldn't compare gendarmes to husaria because, as Alma69 wrote, they were different kind of cavalry. More agile, deffinitely more maneuver, charging several times and they also used pistols, not as cuirassiers did but in melee both sides were shooting at each other.

Some good points , although late 16thc gendarmes carried a pistol as well, and husaria likly didnt carry more than one, but I could be wrong. The maneverability/endurance thing would be tricky to portray in a game in any event.


Sure would be great to jump into the Tardis and witness just one time period battle!

Husaria wore sometimes 2 pistols, sometimes one and sometimes they have even a carbine. Their whole inventory often was of different variety. But you know, their power came from swiftness of their charge not pistol shooting. Witnessing that time period battle would be great, as long as we would be watching it from a distant hill hehe.

TheGrayMouser wrote: I have never heard of knights "trotting" into battle

Too much movies.
Real cav was charging trotting, they was doing this to not break formation. Only best of the bests cavs in whole history was actually charging at real speed, as they was capable to hold formation at speed and that was giving them unmatched ability in breaking enemy formation.
Hussar war doctrine was all about breaking enemy formation. Even using much of psychological warfare. They pained horses and they putted on themselves skins of wild beasts, flags on lances and wings, all to scare enemy mans and horses. Their long lances was not even so good at killing armored man, but was good enough to knock them back and down, this was enough to cause chaos and formation break.
Anyway they have record history of dealing with pistol based cav just fine.