Slitherine

My buddy is unable to log onto the forum, so he asked me to ask two related questions for him:

Here is the first one:

Is anyone else having problems getting their HF into combat? They only move 3 inches a turn, and if your opponent knows what he is doing, will not march more than once or twice all game. How does one avoid your opponent refusing to march forward to face you, and you spending the whole game moving forward 3 inches a turn?

Related question: Why do LF prevent units from marching? My friend feels that they would not pose enough of a threat to HF to cause them to slow down.

Thanks in advance,

Jake

The easiest way to get HF moving is placing a General with them. Untill you are 6 MU from an enemy the general gives them a double move in the movement phase. This works even better if you place multiple HF BG together in a battle line. The general can double move the group until you get within 6 MU of an enemy. Most people are going to try to avoid HF and work on easier prey which should give you some room to double move at least to the enemy side of the table. Once there it is not as easy to avoid a large HF battleline.

LF only stop a BG from performing the double move, they can still move 3 MU. A tactic I have used is to move the battle line as far forward as I can and then charge the LF with the HF. LF have to evade and you each roll a variable move which would allow you to get your HF moving forward quickly, if you roll well.

I was also successful, (once), with a 6 - 1 split on our dice rolls and caught the LF, which makes a very satisfying sound.

<BRIAN>

JakeStrangeway wrote:
Is anyone else having problems getting their HF into combat?

No

Although if the opponent really doesn't want to fight them it can be late in the game before they get there sometimes.

Another answer is that your friend needs to get some skirmishers of his own to chase off the enemy skirmishers. Then his HF can move however they like. A simplistic answer, perhaps, but a good one.

Marc

I haven't had a problem either.

Now you can make a case that someone can keep running from HF. But I have found if you have a lot of HF then you need to keep your soft troops near them.

Consider Romans. Many foes of theirs can beat their mounted and or skirmisher BGs. That doesnt do any enough. If you want to defeat the Romans sooner or later you have to fight the legion.

So the answer is you need to make sure you hide the vulenerable bits so they don't break you by picking off everything but the legion.

There is a big tendency I have noted to spread an army wide. This is often a mistake as the weak bits have to fight then, when they should not.

One other ting to remember is that evades happen in the impact phase and with well aimed and timed charges you can often push light troops far enough back to allow second moves later in the game.

hammy wrote:One other ting to remember is that evades happen in the impact phase and with well aimed and timed charges you can often push light troops far enough back to allow second moves later in the game.

Yes, making enemy skirmishers evade back with charges is the best practice for enabling second moves by other troops. Any you actually catch you can eat.

I don't understand what you mean by charging the enemy light troops with your HF. Unless your opponent is careless, you will never be able to. Stick your light troops 4 inches away from the HF - they can't charge you, (unless I'm missing something in the rules) so all they can do is move 3 inches forward. Now you turn around and repeat the process. If you happen to be bow armed, you can shoot them as each turn.

Now, if you have light troops, they can be out in front of your army as a screen, and THEY can charge the enemy light troops, but you risk having your light troops exposed out in front of your line.

Thanks for all the help!

Jake

JakeStrangeway wrote:I don't understand what you mean by charging the enemy light troops with your HF. Unless your opponent is careless, you will never be able to. Stick your light troops 4 inches away from the HF - they can't charge you, (unless I'm missing something in the rules) so all they can do is move 3 inches forward. Now you turn around and repeat the process. If you happen to be bow armed, you can shoot them as each turn.

Now, if you have light troops, they can be out in front of your army as a screen, and THEY can charge the enemy light troops, but you risk having your light troops exposed out in front of your line.

All of which matches quite well with historical descriptions of battlefield clashes between heavy infantry and skirmishers, BTW!

Cheers,
Scott

Scott,

Absolutely sounds historical - again, the issue is if you have this large body of HF, does it take too long (in real time I mean - i.e. to get the game done) for the HF to get across the table.

Jake

JakeStrangeway wrote:Scott,

Absolutely sounds historical - again, the issue is if you have this large body of HF, does it take too long (in real time I mean - i.e. to get the game done) for the HF to get across the table.

Jake

I don't think so. In my game last night my opponent tried to skirmish my Macedonian pk away from his Almughavars and x-bw long enough for his Kn munch my lancer Cv. Didn't work. In fact, the Pk went forward fast enough to allow my El to cross the battlefield behind them and arrive in the flank of his Kn.

The whole game, from deployment to counting the loot, took about two hours.

Marc

JakeStrangeway wrote:I don't understand what you mean by charging the enemy light troops with your HF. Unless your opponent is careless, you will never be able to. Stick your light troops 4 inches away from the HF - they can't charge you, (unless I'm missing something in the rules) so all they can do is move 3 inches forward. Now you turn around and repeat the process. If you happen to be bow armed, you can shoot them as each turn.

Now, if you have light troops, they can be out in front of your army as a screen, and THEY can charge the enemy light troops, but you risk having your light troops exposed out in front of your line.

Thanks for all the help!

Jake

You cant charge the LF if they are more than 3 inches away but they can only move backwards while facing you a maximum of three inches to keep shooting. I'd be putting the legions down last, maybe ambushing some, maybe keeping a unit of LH cav or LF to put down the the last BG to chase off skirmishers. LH charge a long way and even if they cant get into the LF (if you dont want them tied down) can puch the skirmishers away with eveades so the HF get two marches to keep up with the LH.


Rather than have LF out in front you could tack them to the rear of the HF as well so they are less vulnerable but can move through if needed.

The biggest mistakes Ive seen (made) are putting heavy foot down too early when I want to use them aggressively. Just because you have knight S or elite cavalry doesnt mean they have to go down last.

I had a game with later crusaders (with 4 BG of KnS) against english HYW.

The 12 average defensive spear went down in the last BG so they could match up agaisnt the bow and they steamed into them. I am getting off topic but your order of march is as important as deployment position and list selection in avoiding this.

I havent tried a gaul army but one of the other club members was saying that they'd need to take the cav and LF avaialble just to make sure the stripey-pants chaps get within axe range.

anthony

expendablecinc wrote:

JakeStrangeway wrote:I don't understand what you mean by charging the enemy light troops with your HF. Unless your opponent is careless, you will never be able to. Stick your light troops 4 inches away from the HF - they can't charge you, (unless I'm missing something in the rules) so all they can do is move 3 inches forward. Now you turn around and repeat the process. If you happen to be bow armed, you can shoot them as each turn.

Now, if you have light troops, they can be out in front of your army as a screen, and THEY can charge the enemy light troops, but you risk having your light troops exposed out in front of your line.

Thanks for all the help!

Jake

You cant charge the LF if they are more than 3 inches away but they can only move backwards while facing you a maximum of three inches to keep shooting. I'd be putting the legions down last, maybe ambushing some, maybe keeping a unit of LH cav or LF to put down the the last BG to chase off skirmishers. LH charge a long way and even if they cant get into the LF (if you dont want them tied down) can puch the skirmishers away with eveades so the HF get two marches to keep up with the LH.


Rather than have LF out in front you could tack them to the rear of the HF as well so they are less vulnerable but can move through if needed.

The biggest mistakes Ive seen (made) are putting heavy foot down too early when I want to use them aggressively. Just because you have knight S or elite cavalry doesnt mean they have to go down last.

I had a game with later crusaders (with 4 BG of KnS) against english HYW.

The 12 average defensive spear went down in the last BG so they could match up agaisnt the bow and they steamed into them. I am getting off topic but your order of march is as important as deployment position and list selection in avoiding this.

I havent tried a gaul army but one of the other club members was saying that they'd need to take the cav and LF avaialble just to make sure the stripey-pants chaps get within axe range.

anthony

And they need to do a CMT to be able to turn 180, move the trhee inches, and then turn 180 again. Otherwise they can only turn 180 and move their basic move distance. Thereby the skirmishers dont get to shoot at you in their turn and the next turn your moving your HF up again which means pressure on the skirmishers once again.

HF movement across the table shouldnt be an issue. The only thing that can seriously slow them down is LH that can move up to them and skirmish away easily and hold them up from double moving if there is a general with the BG or BL. Eventually the HF should be across half way and putting pressure on the opponent with his/her decision. In most instances, without LH in opposition, I have seen HF (mine and opponents) move the six inches in the first two turns, then it slows down but that is expected.

Use your own lights to charge the end of the line of enemy lights, if the enemy lights stand to receive your heavies should be able to get into at least an overlap in the next turn if not into frontal melee. The threat ot being drawn into melee with heavies is normally enough for the enemy lights to evade.

Alternatively use the odd BG of cavalry or light horse to scare the pesky lights away.

hammy wrote:Use your own lights to charge the end of the line of enemy lights, if the enemy lights stand to receive your heavies should be able to get into at least an overlap in the next turn if not into frontal melee. The threat ot being drawn into melee with heavies is normally enough for the enemy lights to evade.

Alternatively use the odd BG of cavalry or light horse to scare the pesky lights away.

I have heard Hammy is a master of pesky lights so his are are words of wisdom.

another trick that works well to get heavy foot into action quickly is to have only TC's in your army, not have 12 bases of cavalry or light horse and thus get an initiative modifier of +0. This means you will move first. Deploy your heavies with their own commander behind a screen of light foot who also have a commander. On the first turn double move the light foot and the heavies. Next turn it is almost certain you will be able to double your heavies again so after two moves your heavy foot are 22" in to the table and there is only 26" to go to the base line.

Hammy,

Do you lie awake at night planning these ?

Do you lie awake at night planning these

He's on the dole

stenic wrote:Hammy,

Do you lie awake at night planning these ?

Not especially, deliberatley sacrificing initiative is a very valid tactic and I have to admit it was not me who did it first. I do however regularly use initiative 0 armies. That said the initiative +4 of my Selkjuks at the weekend was pretty handy.

Arranging the initiative of your army to match its needs is one of the important skills in army design IMO - although not a difficult one.

Decide whether you need a certain type of terrain and whether moving first is important and then pick numbers of mounted and generals type to maximise or minimise your chances of getting the initiative as desired