Slitherine

So in this photo the Legion (HF) have charged the Cats and Pikes. Nevermind why the they would be so bold as do something like that. They charged straight forward to get into this situation.

Conforming, Since they can't jump around to the front of the pike they stay where they are. So now, do the Cats conform to the front of the Legions?

What do the Pike do?

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BG's conform in their own movement phase. So the cats and pike will not conform until the next turn if the legion charged. How they conform is another question. If I was the owner of the cats I would say that they conform fully leaving the pike as an overlap, since it would be my turn I would be in my rights to do so. Oooo, poor legion.

You are right in that the legionaries don't conform. The cats and pike stay where they are until their movement phase. At the start of their movement phase you would conform to the legionaries.

Looking at the photo it is a close thing as to which way the cats would conform, if the conform to face off opposite the legions though they would have to move the pikes to make room and I think the fact the pikes are in combat means they can't move them so would have to conform the other way and push the LH aside (assuming they were their own LH).

The pikes have actually been charged in the front by the legionaries so should conform to the front of the left hand file of legionaries. They can't do this without the cats moving first.

All in all a complex situation but I think (without fully checking the rules) that the cats and pike would conform to the right (looking at the photo) and slide the LH out of the way.

Wouldn't this be one of the occasions where "count as conforming" but not moving the units occur?

I find it a little hard to swallow so to speak that the pike would retreat and then slide across to conform and i might have missed it in the rules (only read couple times) but I don't recall reading about pushing other units aside.

cheers

I thought things conformed by the minimum. Which would mean here the Pike end a s a side to side overlap and the cats 2 wide to 2 wide against the legio



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Legio sad, pike evil, cats, obviously, cool

hammy wrote:You are right in that the legionaries don't conform. The cats and pike stay where they are until their movement phase. At the start of their movement phase you would conform to the legionaries. . . .
All in all a complex situation but I think (without fully checking the rules) that the cats and pike would conform to the right (looking at the photo) and slide the LH out of the way.

I am checking the rules and believe you are right if the left Cat from our viewpoint is the one to conform, so the Cats slide to our right. But is it OK that in conforming the base that is in contact now instead slides over into overlap?

If not, wouldn't the Cats stay in contact as they are, but after all conforming is done they feed the left hand file of Cats over to the right side to create an overlap if the LH make room?

Either way, the Cats end up with an overlap on their side.

Depending on whether the Pikes conform first or second, which way the Cats conform would seem to make a difference as to whether the Pikes have room to conform to the Legionaries or stay as they are, but either way they get the second file in overlap in melee. What do you think?

Nice use of a camera in a game Matthew.

This is a bit off subject but who made the pike figs? They look really good.

Scruff wrote:Wouldn't this be one of the occasions where "count as conforming" but not moving the units occur?

I find it a little hard to swallow so to speak that the pike would retreat and then slide across to conform and i might have missed it in the rules (only read couple times) but I don't recall reading about pushing other units aside.

cheers

In the legionaries turn nothing conforms as only the player whos turn it is does any conforming so the melee is worked out as if it had conformed.

In this case if the cats should conform left (in the picture) the melee would be:
1 file of legionaries against 2 cats and the other file of legionaries against the pike (the legionaries count as in frontal contact with the pike (assuming that this was not a legal flank charge) the other file fo pike fights as an overlap and the left hand file of cats doesn't fight as you can't have internal overlaps in an unconformed melee.

Once you get to the cat pike turn then the cats and pike have to conform if possible. Having quickly checked the rules there is nothing about conforming being done one BG at a time BUT as the pike still have to conform into frontal contact because they were charged directly then the cats will have to conform right to make room and then the pike can conform to the single rank of legionaries. The LH will be shifted sideways to make room. If the LH are actually Roman LH then the melee will remain uncomformed in the cat pike players turn too as it is not possible to conform.

Was the legion's charge a valid flank charge on the pike ?
If so why didn't the pike base turn 90deg ?
I didn't think you could hit a side edge unless it was a valid flank charge ?

Keith wrote:Was the legion's charge a valid flank charge on the pike ?
If so why didn't the pike base turn 90deg ?
I didn't think you could hit a side edge unless it was a valid flank charge ?

I asumed that the charge on the pike was not a valid flank charge.

There is nothing preventing a charge hitting the side edge of an enemy BG see the last bullet of charging flanks on P57.

Essentially the legionaries count as charging the front of the pike, if the cats weren't there then the legionaries would conform round to the front of the pikes.

The Legion Pike was NOT a Flank charge. Merely made side contact.

All in all this complex situation has pointed out some good points to remember.

And as a follow up Point, comment.

How about this small wrinkle. The LH to the Cat's Right are in Overlap Combat (block of 6, 4 are in frontal contact, the two seen are at a corner overlap). So, the cats would because of that conform and stop at the LH. Then the Pike would conform as best they could to the front of the Legion.

Thanks for your time on this.

and to answer the Fig Question.

I believe the Pike are Old Glory. King Hassan's figures paitned by splinter light miniatures.

meledward23 wrote:The Legion Pike was NOT a Flank charge. Merely made side contact.

All in all this complex situation has pointed out some good points to remember.

And as a follow up Point, comment.

How about this small wrinkle. The LH to the Cat's Right are in Overlap Combat (block of 6, 4 are in frontal contact, the two seen are at a corner overlap). So, the cats would because of that conform and stop at the LH. Then the Pike would conform as best they could to the front of the Legion.

Thanks for your time on this.

If the LH can't be slid out of the way to allow the cats to conform then the cats can't conform so they don't and the pikes can't conform so again they don't and you have a situation where neither side can conform...

hammy, that is how we played and those battle groups remained in those positions for three turns.

It was a good charge as it pinned my Pikes who were in positon to attack his Cavalry to their front.

My MF Bows above the Pike were broken by his Spanish Impact MF and he turned that entire flank.

The Legionarii broke and we called the game a draw at about 4 hours.

The Bunnies' tournament is to be 3.5 hours plus bonus time per round.
I wonder how many games will end by then.

The figures are Old Glory Seleucid painted by David McBride of Splintered Light Miniatures.
He is one of the best custom painters I have ever seen. He is a forum member and may be taking orders for after Historicon.
I look forward to getting a Dark Ages army with his company's castings painted by Himself when the book comes out.

I like the pike having the sarissa pointed down at an angle rather that straight up. Are OG compatible at all with Xyston? Probably not.

KingHassan wrote:hammy, that is how we played and those battle groups remained in those positions for three turns.

It was a good charge as it pinned my Pikes who were in positon to attack his Cavalry to their front.

Too add to the mixture - if the legionaries remained steady then the cataphracts should break off in the JAP.

hammy wrote:Having quickly checked the rules there is nothing about conforming being done one BG at a time

It does talk about each BG making a conforming move, and elsewhere the rules are clear about BGs moving one at a time - not quite "touch move" but you finish moving one before moving the next.

hammy wrote:as the pike still have to conform into frontal contact because they were charged directly then the cats will have to conform right to make room and then the pike can conform to the single rank of legionaries. The LH will be shifted sideways to make room. If the LH are actually Roman LH then the melee will remain uncomformed in the cat pike players turn too as it is not possible to conform.

The Cats are in "contact with the enemy" so can't be shifted sideways to accommodate the Pikes if the Pikes move first to conform. The only Cataphract in contact is the one on the left, so that is the one to conform if it can, correct?

Letting bases in contact be conformed out of contact and into overlap would open up a range of cheesy situations accidentally/on purpose. The nice thrust of these rules at Impact is that you fight the troops as they are rather than making geometric alignment ideology paramount as in other rules sets, so having the troops fight for 3 turns as they are makes practical sense to me.

MikeK wrote:

hammy wrote:as the pike still have to conform into frontal contact because they were charged directly then the cats will have to conform right to make room and then the pike can conform to the single rank of legionaries. The LH will be shifted sideways to make room. If the LH are actually Roman LH then the melee will remain uncomformed in the cat pike players turn too as it is not possible to conform.

The Cats are in "contact with the enemy" so can't be shifted sideways to accommodate the Pikes if the Pikes move first to conform. The only Cataphract in contact is the one on the left, so that is the one to conform if it can, correct?

From another quick check of the rules conforming is done by a BG and the BG has to slide or pivot the minimum to get into a conformed position. In this case the cats can't conform left (in the picture) because of the pike, they could conform right if the LH to their right were friends not in contact. If the LH were not in contact (which in this case they were) then the cats would have to slide over a base width to conform and the base in initial contact would become an overlap.

I suspect that not allowing a slide to conform if the base in contact to start with becomes an overlap as a result would introduce a lot of issues and while occasionally conforms may be a touch odd they do work.

Good spot on the breakoff BTW. If the legionaires remained steady the cats would have to break off in the JAP and then the pike would have to conform to the left hand legionary as the cats would not be in the way anymore.....

Xyston and Old Glory seem to mix very well.
I saw very nice looking mixed Greeks at the Birmingham tourney this weekend.

The Legionarii did drop cohesion in melee.
Good point.