Slitherine

Hello,

The other day I witnessed a first game between the Later Carthaginians and Late Republican Romans, using the starter armies for each respective list.

Anyway, on one flank a unit of Carthaginian cavalry was facing a unit of Roman slingers, in open terrain. Naturally they charged... the slingers evaded... same thing next turn, and next turn... the player with the slingers would always move to 4 inches away on his turn, thus staying safe (though not always able to shoot).

Unless I'm missing something... if a player is competent, and not extremely unlucky on his random move distance dice (6-1), a unit of light foot can never be caught by cavalry. That seems a bit obtuse, so I have to assume I'm missing something.

Help!

Thanks.

The exact same thing happened to me and I, too, was somewhat suprised. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that cavalry should easily be able to run down even lightly armored foot.

I don't think you are overlooking anything. I basically had to resign myself to the fact that non-skirmishers can never catch, and thus should never chase, skirmishers.

Another thing I learned having reflected upon that experience is that while Cv are very bad at dealing with LF, LH is supreme because not only do they have the movement but they also don't reduce their die vs. LF but LF do. So a BG of 4 LH charging 4 LF would get 8 dice to their 4.

~Jason

You are correct that if the Lf stay at four MU the the Cv need a 6-1 split on the VMD dice to catch them. Not likely, but the risk does exist. If the Cv can contrive to start closer then their chances increase dramatically. Not surprising, really, when you think that the whole point of Lf skirmishers is to annoy the enemy, then run away. The real danger to the Lf is that they can only pull that trick so many times before the rear table edge starts to loom into view . . . .

Marc

Yep you are missing something which is the right tactics under FOG .... ride up closer and see what happens.

Stop 5 MU away.

If they come up to fire don't charge but ride up to them nice and close. If they don't do the same.

Now see how much they enjoy it - of course you have to be able to take the hits on the chin.

Si

Nice tactic Shall! I just crunched the numbers and if the Cv ride to within 1" of the LF, then they will catch the evaders 39% of the time. Not so bad.

Of course, LH within 1" will catch them 78% of the time and they cost less, so LH would seem to be the much preferred troop type for killing pesky skirmishers.

j2klbs wrote:Of course, LH within 1" will catch them 78% of the time and they cost less, so LH would seem to be the much preferred troop type for killing pesky skirmishers.

Truth.

Marc

shall wrote:Yep you are missing something which is the right tactics under FOG .... ride up closer and see what happens.

Stop 5 MU away.

If they come up to fire don't charge but ride up to them nice and close. If they don't do the same.

Now see how much they enjoy it - of course you have to be able to take the hits on the chin.

Si

My thoughts exactly Si once you are a whisker away from them they only got 3 options that is to stay put and hope the firing hurts the cav (takes a brave person) or they can try complex move to withdraw 3" and face the same direction and still fire,but then reduces there chance of getting catched,or just retire 5" but cannot fire.
My experience of LF in the open against Cav is they usually get caught out unless well supported.

Andy.

shall wrote:Yep you are missing something which is the right tactics under FOG

"Game" the system, then? I'd have thought something as simple as chasing down foot with cavalry would be more straightforward.

.... ride up closer and see what happens.

Stop 5 MU away.

If they come up to fire don't charge but ride up to them nice and close.

That raises an interesting clarification: Since you can't move into contact during the maneuver phase (except to overlap), how close can you get? I'm guessing as long as there is an infinitesmal distance between you and the enemy you're good, right?

If they don't do the same.

Now see how much they enjoy it - of course you have to be able to take the hits on the chin.

You're assuming hanging around and shooting the cavalry is always the best option for the skirmishers.

Okay, so you move up to 1/infinity of an MU away from the skirmishers. On their turn they turn around and jump back to 4 + 1/infinity MU away. Or CMT and be 3 + 1/infinity MU away, if they want to take the 1/36th chance of being caught, but still shoot. Puts you in a bind. Either you can try to disregard the light foot (at which point they'll follow you around and keep shooting you), or you can keep going after them until you chase them off the table. Which means, essentially, that in open terrain, it's a trivial task for light foot to take much more expensive cavalry out of the battle.

Ah well, I guess I've found my first big peave with this system.

Jhykron wrote:Either you can try to disregard the light foot (at which point they'll follow you around and keep shooting you), or you can keep going after them until you chase them off the table. Which means, essentially, that in open terrain, it's a trivial task for light foot to take much more expensive cavalry out of the battle.

LF can't take cavalry out of the battle unless you let them. Often the right answer is to ignore them, let them shoot at you, and use your cavalry to support your plan. Accept that this is one matchup that favors the enemy and look for one that favors you.

Where is your LF, by the way? Even inferior LF can have value by sucking up missiles for more valuable troops.

Jhykron wrote: That raises an interesting clarification: Since you can't move into contact during the maneuver phase (except to overlap), how close can you get? I'm guessing as long as there is an infinitesmal distance between you and the enemy you're good, right?

Normally all that really matters is being within 1 MU but you can approach to within a gnats todger if you want.

You're assuming hanging around and shooting the cavalry is always the best option for the skirmishers.

All that skirmishers can do to cavalry is shoot them. If they don't then the cavalry will be able to carry on doing more important stuff like outflanking the enemy battle line.

Okay, so you move up to 1/infinity of an MU away from the skirmishers. On their turn they turn around and jump back to 4 + 1/infinity MU away. Or CMT and be 3 + 1/infinity MU away, if they want to take the 1/36th chance of being caught, but still shoot. Puts you in a bind. Either you can try to disregard the light foot (at which point they'll follow you around and keep shooting you), or you can keep going after them until you chase them off the table. Which means, essentially, that in open terrain, it's a trivial task for light foot to take much more expensive cavalry out of the battle.

True,

On the other hand if you just point your cavalry BG at the enemy camp or something else important then the light foot really can't stop you getting there.

You can also get 'clever' with the cavalry by advancing at an angle and putting the end of the skirmish line in your restricted zone so they cannot simply move directly back and have to turn to move away but remain in front of you.

If the only troops on the field are a BG of cavalry and a BG of light foot the light foot are reasonably secure if the cavalry just advance directly towards the light foot but if they wheel and 'pin' one or other end of the light foot at an angle the light foot can struggle to move away in an ordered manner. Possibly a bit geometrical but this idea just came to me while I was typing. I am pretty sure it will work.

rtaylor wrote: LF can't take cavalry out of the battle unless you let them. Often the right answer is to ignore them, let them shoot at you,

That can be a pretty tough pill to swallow. Especially in a 4-stand cavalry unit.

and use your cavalry to support your plan. Accept that this is one matchup that favors the enemy and look for one that favors you.

I dunno, conceptually a bunch of foot skirmishers in the open SHOULD be a matchup that favors the cavalry.

Where is your LF, by the way? Even inferior LF can have value by sucking up missiles for more valuable troops.

I wasn't a player in the game in question, just an observer, but, again ... why should cavalry need their own light foot to babysit them in open terrain against enemy light foot? I mean, to my own understanding of mounted warfare from the bronze age to the Napoleonics age, dispersed infantry in the open -should- be cavalry's #1 favored prey. That's what's throwing me off here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully cognizant of the GAME's implications for this matchup. I'm not looking for tactical advice... I had a rules question about a situation that really didn't make sense to me from a versimiltude standpoint, and I guess I'm just going to have to accept that I don't like the answer.

hammy wrote: Normally all that really matters is being within 1 MU but you can approach to within a gnats todger if you want.

Thanks.

All that skirmishers can do to cavalry is shoot them. If they don't then the cavalry will be able to carry on doing more important stuff like outflanking the enemy battle line.

Actually, the key isn't the skirmishers shooting the cavalry, it's them making the -threat- to shoot the cavalry that forces the cavalry player into a bind. Either they chase the light foot and (wince) probably never catch them or they ignore them and take quite a bit of punishment while doing something else.

True,

On the other hand if you just point your cavalry BG at the enemy camp or something else important then the light foot really can't stop you getting there.

Well, the camp will take a few turns to arrive at, and the light foot you are ignoring get to shoot you twice per 5 MU you cover. Depending on the size of the respective units, that has a real chance of getting quite ugly for the cavalry.

You can also get 'clever' with the cavalry by advancing at an angle and putting the end of the skirmish line in your restricted zone so they cannot simply move directly back and have to turn to move away but remain in front of you.

If the only troops on the field are a BG of cavalry and a BG of light foot the light foot are reasonably secure if the cavalry just advance directly towards the light foot but if they wheel and 'pin' one or other end of the light foot at an angle the light foot can struggle to move away in an ordered manner. Possibly a bit geometrical but this idea just came to me while I was typing. I am pretty sure it will work.

Maybe...

Anyway, my rules question has been answered. I should probably go gripe about things somewhere else.

So what do the LI do when they reach the end of the table?

Maxshadow wrote:So what do the LI do when they reach the end of the table?

Die ( "he he he he ")

Andy.

Maxshadow wrote:So what do the LI do when they reach the end of the table?

Evade off it, so that they only count as 1 Attrition Point instead of 2.

Jhykron wrote:

shall wrote:Yep you are missing something which is the right tactics under FOG

"Game" the system, then? I'd have thought something as simple as chasing down foot with cavalry would be more straightforward.

Ah well, I guess I've found my first big peave with this system.

Odd that you think cavalry starting from a long way away should always catch foot. Pretty obvious to me. I see horse in the distance I start to skedaddle if the horse don't press I can keep away from them.

versus

Horse is close and then we start the race, much easier to be caught.

Nice tactic Shall! I just crunched the numbers and if the Cv ride to within 1" of the LF, then they will catch the evaders 39% of the time. Not so bad.

Of course, LH within 1" will catch them 78% of the time and they cost less, so LH would seem to be the much preferred troop type for killing pesky skirmishers.

Indeed. And LH were great LF killers inthe open. But if decent trrain large quantites of LF will be the better options, and if LF can fall back through heavier troops then LH will flounder against thier missile fire as they can't easily charge them away without big risks....

If LH are 1 MU from FM then they too can be caught. Another quite deliberate calibration of our %es.

So we have set it up to reflect history inside the %es as much as possible.

Good to see such things take time for people to discover

Simon Hall

I have to say that realism of Fog has converted me away from WHAB where once a skirmisher flees, it rarely rallies. FoG offers the player the opportunity to use skirmishers properly! Running away and being annoying is exactly what they are supposed to do. And in answer to the many points raised i have to say this:

1. yes in this instance LF can out run Cav, however, think of them as using dead ground, obstacles etc to avoid being ridden over.

2. As previously mentioned - why bother with CV verses LF? In the very least, you get to move those pesky skirmishers away from you.

hazelbark wrote:Odd that you think cavalry starting from a long way away should always catch foot.

Please do me the courtesy of not telling me what I think, so I don't have to get uncivil. (Edit: insert smiley here) Either that or point out when I ever said "always", or "a long way away".

Pretty obvious to me. I see horse in the distance I start to skedaddle if the horse don't press I can keep away from them.

Take 1000 men. Take 1000 men on horses. Put them in relatively open terrain. Give group A a 200 yard head start (probably more than 4" in this game's scale, hardly a "long way").

Any takers that group B isn't going to be able to run down group A without much trouble? Really?

versus

Horse is close and then we start the race, much easier to be caught.

Ah. I see. And the cavalry is going to get close HOW? The light foot can stay over 5" away at will and over 3" away with a CMT.

Look people, you're not going to convince me that this makes sense. Second guessing my tactical understanding isn't going to make the situation any more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary, of course.

bigdamnhero wrote:1. yes in this instance LF can out run Cav, however, think of them as using dead ground, obstacles etc to avoid being ridden over.

That would work if the cavalry burst through the enemy LF (probably not unjustified anyway), but they don't. They just chase them. Or conceed they probably can't catch them and try to do something else.

2. As previously mentioned - why bother with CV verses LF?

As I said, that's really beside the point. Looking at the game purely as a game, I agree, it's not the optimal matchup. Obviously.

In the very least, you get to move those pesky skirmishers away from you.

Again and again and again, in fact.

Argh, I've been suckered into returning to this thread...