Slitherine

This past weekend I drove out to Chicago to play in the FoG tournament at the Little Wars convention. I decided to run Late Med. Germs because I had the notion in my head that the Cav, Avg., Drilled, Armored, x-bow, swordsmen would be good troops. Not sure where I got that notion; it has faded, following the reality-check that is tournament play. I arrived Friday night and—for the price of a bottle or two of Leffe Blond—helped Chuck Hines and Jim Hauber run their demo games.

My army was pretty much all average, drilled, roughly as follows:
2 BGs of 12 Pk
1 BG of halberdiers, armored, heavy weapon
1 BG of MF x-bow
1 BG of LF handgunners
1 BG of Cv, armored, lancer, swordsmen
2 BGs of Kn
2 BGs of Lh, bow
1 BG of Cv, armored, x-bow, swordsmen
1 BG of mob

Game 1 v. Jeff Fletcher with Bosporans

Prior to the tournament I had given some thought to the problem of dealing with shooty cav armies, and here I am getting to play one in the first game. I set up in a long line across the board: from left to right, my MF x-bow, Cv x-bow, Pk 3 deep by 4 wide, halberdiers, Kn, then Cv lancers. Jeff had a long line of shooty cav, with one BG of lancers on each end. The only terrain that mattered was a marsh near the midpoint on my left that Jeff filled with slingers.

Both armies surged forwards from the starting bell, eventually meeting just about height of the marsh. Jeff tried to sneak his lancers between his shooty cav and the marsh, but left no room for the shooters to evade. I charged, they were forced to take it, and got crushed by the x-bow cav and Pk. I even killed the general with them. That was the one and only good thing to happen to me in the entire game. From there on out Jeff's shooting dice were good; my CT dice were abysmal. The game ended in short order with a massive victory to Jeff. Uggh.

Game 2 v. Dave Shepps with Late Med. Germs.

A civil war! Dave brought the earlier version of the list, with no Pk. This game started out where game one left off. Within a couple turns I was down 4 BGs, including an episode in which one BG of Dave's Kn blew through a line of Pk and Kn in a straight up fight. I even had overlaps on both sides. Uggh. Then Chuck Hines, who had been watching this disaster unfold, told me I looked like I needed a beer and brought me a bottle of some delightful Belgian brew. Just what I needed! The worm began to turn, and I managed a comeback. Enough to break 5 of Dave's BGs and send the game down to the wire. Time was called with both of us teetering on the brink, and having the necessary enemy attrition points in play. A good, tense game, and boy I needed that beer.

Game 3 v. Doug Anderson with Ptolemaic

This game started up where the previous one left off, with me doing well. I decided to experiment with a flank march, which came on at a reasonable time, managed a flank attack on one of Doug's BGs of lancers, and chased them off the board. On the other flank, my Lh chased down and eventually killed a BG of Lf. I was up 4 BGs to 2, then 5 BGs to 2, then 6 BGs to 2, with my Lh just inches from Doug's baggage. I thought I had won, but Doug said he had 13 BGs in his army. In the space of one bound Doug broke 4 of my BGs, including blowing up a steady BG of Pk. As I sat there shellshocked, trying to figure out what had just happened, it slowly penetrated my little brain to recount Doug's army. Doug had miscounted: he only had 12 BGs! Hah! I had won the game the turn before. Whew. I think a lot of people got a chuckle out seeing me sit there with a blank look on my face when I thought I had managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Anyway, it was a fine time and a good tournament. The prizes (delicious Belgian beer) were top-notch, the play fun, and the people excellent. Once again the rules were up to the test. There were few disputes, and those easily solved by reference to the top-quality index. I can't wait until Historicon.

Marc

Why were you disappointed in the mounted X-bows?

ethan wrote:Why were you disappointed in the mounted X-bows?

Oops, I did forget to mention that further. Basically, they broke in all three games, accomplishing little. Some of this is likely due to me using them poorly (especially in game three). The rest is that the x-bows are not particularly potent shooting weapons. They are relatively expensive, being armored, with the armor not bringing much to the party. They got shot down by opposing shooters and ridden down by opposing lancers.

They never did get the opportunity to skirmish against knights, which might be their strength. I do not assert that they are terrible, just not as good as I thought they were going to be.

Marc

As with all crossbow, it's only so-so at best. The better the armour of the opponent, the less meh they are. My protected/sw/xbow seem to do fine against non shock troops. Though they do very little actual shooting

I see these problems with shooty cav compared to LH:

1. Cav must be in a single rank to evade (and to get all possible shooting dice). That requires room to evade, and I'm not a good enough player to get cute with them. I find LH to be more flexible in 4-base BGs deployed in two ranks, and they get as many shooting dice per file.

2. Cav cannot turn 180 and move, while LH can.

3. A BG in 4 files presents a big target. It is at a disadvantage vs. two BGs of shooters splitting its fire.

Fugu wrote:As with all crossbow, it's only so-so at best. The better the armour of the opponent, the less meh they are. My protected/sw/xbow seem to do fine against non shock troops. Though they do very little actual shooting

HMM, THAT is actually very weird !
X-Bows actually had the punch to pierce plate armour.
HOWEVER you need to get them in close (hence the fact that those chaps themselves wore armour) and dangerous to do serious damage. (Of course mounted crossbows were less powerfull than those taken by foottroops)

I would say that IF you get them within short range of anything plated they should do some damage.

rtaylor wrote:I see these problems with shooty cav compared to LH:

1. Cav must be in a single rank to evade (and to get all possible shooting dice). That requires room to evade, and I'm not a good enough player to get cute with them. I find LH to be more flexible in 4-base BGs deployed in two ranks, and they get as many shooting dice per file.

2. Cav cannot turn 180 and move, while LH can.

3. A BG in 4 files presents a big target. It is at a disadvantage vs. two BGs of shooters splitting its fire.

OTOH, shooty cav can crush equal or better LH; make troops charged in flank or rear go down a cohesion level; generate more dice of shooting per base frontage even if deployed in 2 ranks.

As with all crossbow, it's only so-so at best. The better the armour of the opponent, the less meh they are. My protected/sw/xbow seem to do fine against non shock troops. Though they do very little actual shooting

I actually think this is correct. They should be posted in a field of cabbages or behind the vineyard wall etc. They should annoy the hell out of an enemy mtd unit who would be crazy to attack them in disordering terrain, and being armored swordsmen means enemy skirmishers will not be able to dislodge you. If on the other hand you put them in the main battle line you will be meat for enemy impact troops, knights and lancers. wasn't it agincourt where French knights over-ran their own x-bow to get at the English?

Mounted crossbow are fine troops in period where many infantry are armoured and there are plenty of mounted around.

They are as good as bow against all mounted apart from deep formations of protected or worse and better against heavy armoured troops.

Where they are not so hot is against skirmishing foot.

As armoured swordsmen the German cavalry can cut MF archers to pieces if they can get into melee. The only real issue with them is that they are only average and are thus a bit more vulnerable to failing CTs.

I for one will be buying the figures to field 8 bases of crossbow cavalry rather than use my now defunct mounted longbow for the job.

babyshark wrote: I think a lot of people got a chuckle out seeing me sit there with a blank look on my face when I thought I had managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Nyah...we've seen that look on you plenty of times.

hammy wrote:Mounted crossbow are fine troops in period where many infantry are armoured and there are plenty of mounted around.

As armoured swordsmen the German cavalry can cut MF archers to pieces if they can get into melee. The only real issue with them is that they are only average and are thus a bit more vulnerable to failing CTs.

I for one will be buying the figures to field 8 bases of crossbow cavalry rather than use my now defunct mounted longbow for the job.

I also like them to skirmish against enemy KN for awhile and then once the fight starts they can come in on a flankor overlap.

They can keep enemy LH honest as the LH don't want to tangle with the Armd/Sw.

They are not battle winners per se, but for heavy armies they can sure earn their pay on one flank that could normally be caved in quite easily.

hazelbark wrote:

babyshark wrote: I think a lot of people got a chuckle out seeing me sit there with a blank look on my face when I thought I had managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Nyah...we've seen that look on you plenty of times.

Dan:

I have been wondering when you would raise up. It has been days; you're too late with your slagging.

Marc

As time goes on and I do more thinking about what went right and wrong in my games I am slowly returning to my original thinking that the mounted x-bows are reasonable troops. My current conclusion is that I need to learn to use them better. I got little value from them against enemy knights, mostly because of deployment issues. I may wind up moving them farther down the deployment order get them where I need them.

Marc

I think this is true with any crossbow. Try getting them in a shootout vs any type of archers once and you'll see what I mean.

Crossbow, very good against the right troops, very bad against the wrong ones.

Unclemeat.. why a cabbage field? i hate cabbage! Why not a carrot field or something? You have found my weakness.. My troops are a - in cabbage fields!

Since this thread has taken a turn toward ... cabbage, I thought I'd relay what was quite possibly for me the most memorable part of Little Wars.

Marc relayed to myself and Chuck Hines that he indeed belongs to the "Bacon of the Month" club.

Indeed, this is the mark of a man's man

JF

Indeed, I am a proud member of the Bacon of the Month Club. In fact, April's shipment arrived on my doorstep yesterday afternoon. Mmmmm, delicious porcine goodness.

Marc