Slitherine

Now that My Romans are almost done being painted. The last (well sort of) of my Swiss have come from Venixa. Here is what they look like:

2xFC
1xTC
5xPike BG of 8 stands
1xHalberd BG of 6 stands
1xCrossbow BG of 8 stands
1xHandgunner BG of 4 stands
2xHandgunner BG of 6 stands
1xMounted Crossbow BG of 4
1xLorrainer Knights BG of 6
1xDu De Lorraine TC
This is 797 points. The 2 times I have used them my 2 FC let the handgunners go out far and force Knghts to charge them and run back to the pike which ends badly for the knights. The Duke allows me to throw all my cavalry all over, makes recovering morale for the mounted crossbow easy. And when I face better Knights (French and the like) I throw the Duke in the front rank to make them elite. If he gets killed, so what he did historically!

Irondog

Interesting, the knights are definitley the main focus of this list, very powerful indeed.

The Swiss list I used back at the Leeds playtest in 2007 was:

1xIC
2xTC
6xPike BG of 8 stands
3xHalberd BG of 4 stands (mainly for rear support and flank cover)
3xCrossbow BG of 6 stands
1xHandgunner BG of 6 stands
1xMounted Crossbow BG of 4

It worked OK but as the comp was open there were rather too many mobile shooty types about for my liking so in the end it just made mid table.

That is very simial to my 800 point Swiss army but I still have 5 pike blocks with 3x4 Halberd BG for rear and flank support. Also the Lorrainers are dropped to 4 bases. But the Handgunners are all 6 stand units. It seems most people do not like the Swiss to have a lot of skirmishers since they force charges into pike or just cause general havoc before the pike blocks close.

irondog068 wrote:Now that My Romans are almost done being painted. The last (well sort of) of my Swiss have come from Venixa. Here is what they look like:

2xFC
1xTC
5xPike BG of 8 stands
1xHalberd BG of 6 stands
1xCrossbow BG of 8 stands
1xHandgunner BG of 4 stands
2xHandgunner BG of 6 stands
1xMounted Crossbow BG of 4
1xLorrainer Knights BG of 6
1xDu De Lorraine TC
This is 797 points. The 2 times I have used them my 2 FC let the handgunners go out far and force Knghts to charge them and run back to the pike which ends badly for the knights. The Duke allows me to throw all my cavalry all over, makes recovering morale for the mounted crossbow easy. And when I face better Knights (French and the like) I throw the Duke in the front rank to make them elite. If he gets killed, so what he did historically!

Irondog

Hi Irondog The Duke only brings the Lorraine knights up to superior don't he not Elite

Andy.

My bad!
True enough. That would make my Lorrainers equal unless they threw in a commander. And last time someone did that against my Swiss there was a little 15mm generals head at the end of a 15mm pike

Irondog

irondog068 wrote:Now that My Romans are almost done being painted. The last (well sort of) of my Swiss have come from Venixa. Here is what they look like:

2xFC
1xTC
5xPike BG of 8 stands
1xHalberd BG of 6 stands
1xCrossbow BG of 8 stands
1xHandgunner BG of 4 stands
2xHandgunner BG of 6 stands
1xMounted Crossbow BG of 4
1xLorrainer Knights BG of 6
1xDu De Lorraine TC
This is 797 points. The 2 times I have used them my 2 FC let the handgunners go out far and force Knghts to charge them and run back to the pike which ends badly for the knights. The Duke allows me to throw all my cavalry all over, makes recovering morale for the mounted crossbow easy. And when I face better Knights (French and the like) I throw the Duke in the front rank to make them elite. If he gets killed, so what he did historically!

Irondog

aren't you finding the 8stand BG of pikes a little brittle? i've been playing an alexandrian army, and the 12stand blocks take all kinds of punishment and stand, but the 8stand superior argyraspids? it's like they have wings they run away so fast.

I was wondering what army I might do in this period...Y'all are doing a great job convincing me to go with Swiss once I get my Marian Romans finished!

I would have thought a 8 stand was brittle also. But in the 2 games I have played I do not think I lost more than 1 stand of Pikemen. I keep them well screen with my cloud of skirmishers. Plus they are better than 95% of the other pike units out there. The other benifit of a 8 stand unit is it is a lot easier to manuver than a 12 stand unit. It is basiclly a square so it takes up the same room if it faces 90 degrees. Plus it wheels faster than a 12 stand unit.

That is one reason I am going to try my Romans (See my Roman army list post) with only 1x6 BG and the other 6 BG are of 4 stands. For speed and flexiblity of movement. If it don't work, I will need more minis.

irondog068 wrote:I would have thought a 8 stand was brittle also. But in the 2 games I have played I do not think I lost more than 1 stand of Pikemen. I keep them well screen with my cloud of skirmishers. Plus they are better than 95% of the other pike units out there. The other benifit of a 8 stand unit is it is a lot easier to manuver than a 12 stand unit. It is basiclly a square so it takes up the same room if it faces 90 degrees. Plus it wheels faster than a 12 stand unit.

it dawned on me that the trouble might be that i'm relying on the superior pikes to do too much work!

will use them a little more carefully

I was also interested in this list and teh coments of people using it. My assumption was that it was best to go historical - mostly Pike (6 units) and skirmishers (4) with just a small unit of knights and only two lots of Halberdiers. I presume that the best way to use the Pike is historical - attack in echelon with the Pike screened by skirmishers. In that case would the "small" size of the pike units matter?

I have used my Swiss twice.
Both times I found following Swiss Historical tactics is scary for the enemy.

I have a list for a 25mm version of only 650 points and it looks scary

4 x BG of 4 handgunners
6 x BG of 8 pikemen
2 x BGs of 4 Halberdiers

3 x TCs

Would be very difficult to beat, however bad terrain would help.

Don

hi swiss lovers
where can i find nice 15mm swiss fig? and loraine allies?

Mirliton make the best Swiss IMO.

thx hammy

i'v just ordered it from mirliton; looks great.

the problem of the duke of lorrains stays. do u know where to find flags and figs of medieval lorrain? or whats the closest?

sincerelly

The Duchy of Lorraine was a part of the Holy Roman Empire, the Duke and his followers woudl not be markedly diffrent from other late 15th Century men-at-arms with a mixture of German (which mirliton erronously calles the Maximilan style) and Italian style armours. The 'knights' and 'light cavalry with lances' would do just fine as the Lorrainers. I'd use a lot of "Light cavalry" rather than 'knights', at least 50-60% as it is doubtfull that the area could huge numbers of fully equipped men-at-arms. The 'Burgundian' command group will work quite well as a lorrainer command group.

great thx daniels

You can get the duc de lorranne flag from
www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_2.html
All sorts of Swiss and 2 diffrent Duc Flags. I use one for the Lorrainers and the second for the man. They also have a couple of cool crossed axe standards from Biel that I use for my Halberders.

Venixia also makes cool Swiss.

Dave

irondog068 wrote:I have used my Swiss twice.
Both times I found following Swiss Historical tactics is scary for the enemy.

Concur.

I implemented the following historically-based doctrine vs. the unfortunate French. It's in a summary format but it's easy to define for the Swiss and may be interesting - forgive any typos.

SWISS DOCTRINE (May 2008): The Swiss army makes maximum use of speed and Drilled manoeuvreability to use the concentrated power of massed Pikes to smash part of the enemy before they can avoid the blow, then keeps up fast attacks to keep the enemy on the defensive.

The army is divided into Vorhut (vanguard), Gewalthut (main body of Pikes from 3 or 4 Cantons), and nachhut (rearguard). A target is determined and the Gewalthut moves to the assault en masse. The Vanguard and Nachhut either cover the flanks, pin, or deliver a secondary or diversionary attack. Handgunners and Enfants Perdus precede the Gewalthut to screen, harass, and provoke shock troops and then move to the rear or flanks. Crossbows advance on the exposed flank within safe range of the Pikes. Mounted Crossbows advance at the outset to slow the enemy that potentially threatens the flank of the army. The Halberdiers are used flexibly, when in doubt behind the Gewalthut ready to defend their flank. The Lorrainers are a mobile reserve located near the Gewalthut, intended mainly to counter flank threats on the Gewalthut and take targets of opportunity.

Our inspired committee of commanders extends its benign aura of wisdom and confidence over the bulk of the army. The committee does not fight in the front rank, and focuses on helping troop maneuver and rallying faltering troops. The Duc de Lorraine generally remains near his Knights. Sturm is initially active on the "inner" flank where the enemy threatens, while Schtab may lead scouts early on but falls back to fight the Pikes of the Gewalthut thereafter.

Assaults should be made by at least two central BGs of Pikes of the Gewalthut on a broad front, with a Commander in the front rank if the outcome may be in doubt. The Committee should be attached to one of the assaulting BGs, but not in the front rank. Upon breakthrough, after pursuit the Pikes should immediately turn to clear the front of the Gewalthut of non-routing enemies and then push as a body to one flank or the other, leaving a rearguard if needed.

When advancing to the assault, the supports (including the Vorhut and Nachhut unless detached). will typically fall back to an echelon-back position as the Gewalthut pushes forward. Upon success in the assault, the supports try to pin down the enemy front as the Gewalthut attacks their flank.

All light units are to attempt to stay alive and divert enemy attention rather than do any serious fighting. If a breach is made, lights near there may be sent for the enemy Camp if near. Lights forced back on the flanks may seek to cover our camp.

Pikes attack in deep formations but may act defensively in a shallower formation to gain frontage. The offensive is preferable, but if surrounded Pikes may form into Orb with the intention of safely tying down enemy troops.

Terrain is preferably a narrow frontage of open ground with impassable or secure flanks where we can rely on frontal power, but if the enemy could dominate the open from there with terrain troops then open ground is better. Deployment is set up to defer commitment of the Pikes and allow some late placements of the reserve and 2 Cantons' Pikes.

OB and Order of March
IF, 2xTC, Ally TC
1 Mtd Crossbowmen LH Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow 4 @ 7 = 28
2 Handgunners LF Unprotected Average Drilled Firearm - - - 4 @ 4 = 16
3 Crossbows LF Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow - - - 6 @ 5 = 30
4 Enfants Perdus LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins - - - 6 @ 2 = 12
5 Glaurus HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
6 Zug HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
7 Schwyz HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
8 Unterwalden HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
9 Halberdiers HF Protected Superior Drilled - Heavy weapon - - 6 @ 10 = 60
10 Uri HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 56
11 Zurich HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
12 Knights of Lorraine Kn HvArm Average Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4 @ 21 = 84