Slitherine

Hi all,

OK, this situation came up in our last game.



The Light horse (BG4) had been standing off, showering arrows into the Offensive spearmen (BG6) (with obviously little effect - they were there really to hold back the foot from advancing too far.

So in the Foot BGs turn, the Light Horse were charged by (passed their CMT and stood to receive) the Offensive spearmen in the front, AND the pikes (BG12) in the flank.

From the flank hit the LH lost a cohesion level and from the impact combats only lost a base - no further negative effects. (Hurrahh!! The heroes!!)

Following the Impact Phase we got into CONFORMING.

So, the Offensive spearmen pivoted out of their 'stepped forward' contact to conform to the front of the Light horse (pictured having conformed).

The problem came when we tried to conform the Pike block. Hmm.

What happens?

From the rules (p70), we determined that the pikes should wheel to line up facing/in contact with the LH flank. Is this correct?

The problem is:

1. This REALLY pulled the pike out of position which seems a bit extreme
2. The pikes in wheeling into contact would actually contact the opponent spearmen enagaed in combat to their right.

In the end, we actually decided to go with the 'troops that cannot conform...' bullet point (p71) and said that the pikes remained where they were but continued to fight in a flank contact.

SO...did we do anything wrong?

What should the pike have done as a conform action?

I had a very similar situation in a game this week, the main difference was that it was a chargers stepping forward situation. We eventually determined that the intent of the rules was to get the correct number of bases fighting in the melee round so went with the 'stay as they are' option as this created the fewest problems. It strikes me that as long as both players agree what to do there should be no problem.

Pat

Hi Luddite,
Looking at the picture the pike what hit the LH BG looks to me it did not entirely start from behind the LH flank and if that was the case it would not be a flank attack you would just get extra dice for the pikemen then i believe your pikemen would wheel back the minimum to line up parallel with the side edge of the LH BG.
Andy

Hi Luddite,
Looking at the picture the pike what hit the LH BG looks to me it did not entirely start from behind the LH flank and if that was the case it would not be a flank attack you would just get extra dice for the pikemen then i believe your pikemen would wheel back the minimum to line up parallel with the side edge of the LH BG.
Andy

andy63 wrote:Hi Luddite,
Looking at the picture the pike what hit the LH BG looks to me it did not entirely start from behind the LH flank and if that was the case it would not be a flank attack you would just get extra dice for the pikemen then i believe your pikemen would wheel back the minimum to line up parallel with the side edge of the LH BG.
Andy

Yes it did.

p55 -

1. No part of the pike BG was directly in front of the LH
2. Pike BG had 1+ base entirely behind a line extending from the front of the LH
3. Pikes first point of contact was side edge of LH

Hence it was a flank hit.

We did consider that the Pike would wheel back to line up in overlap, but as it hit the flank, the rules on p70 seem quite clear that the pike SHOULD have wheeled into side contact.

Trouble is this seemed like an extreme move that pulled the pike impossibly out of line, had them wheeling through another enemy BG and left them with an exposed flank...

patwarg's comment that 'as long as both players agree it's fine' is OK for friendly play (we agreed it was silly for the pike to wheel around, even though i had some lancers knocking about (just out of the picture) in the rear ready to spring forward on such a juicy target)...however, how should this be resolved for tournament play?

In a tournament the pike would conform the the flank of the light horse.

Possibly a reason not to charge with them...

The offensive spear should be more than capable of slaughtering the LH if they stand.

hammy wrote:In a tournament the pike would conform the the flank of the light horse.

Possibly a reason not to charge with them...

The offensive spear should be more than capable of slaughtering the LH if they stand.

Cheers Hammy...

Not charging an open flank eh?....does...not...compute...

I can see there's FAR more to these rules than what's written on the page...excellent..

Actually, the above game was my Bosporans (currently proxied up from a combo of my Mongols and Macedonians) vs. Mal's Armenians (proxied with a variety of Seleucids, Vikings, Huns, etc. - we're still testing the rules / army choices before purchasing 'proper' forces).

So far my Bosporans are unbeaten...they'll do until the official Mongol list comes out...

Luddite wrote:
The problem came when we tried to conform the Pike block. Hmm.

What happens?

From the rules (p70), we determined that the pikes should wheel to line up facing/in contact with the LH flank. Is this correct?

The problem is:

1. This REALLY pulled the pike out of position which seems a bit extreme
2. The pikes in wheeling into contact would actually contact the opponent spearmen enagaed in combat to their right.

In the end, we actually decided to go with the 'troops that cannot conform...' bullet point (p71) and said that the pikes remained where they were but continued to fight in a flank contact.

I would just note that the rules say you conform by pivot and/or sliding so thinking in terms of wheeling may not be suitable.

That said it looks to me from the picture that there is room for the flanking BG to fit so it must do so.

Luddite wrote:

andy63 wrote:Hi Luddite,
Looking at the picture the pike what hit the LH BG looks to me it did not entirely start from behind the LH flank and if that was the case it would not be a flank attack you would just get extra dice for the pikemen then i believe your pikemen would wheel back the minimum to line up parallel with the side edge of the LH BG.
Andy

Yes it did.

p55 -

1. No part of the pike BG was directly in front of the LH
2. Pike BG had 1+ base entirely behind a line extending from the front of the LH
3. Pikes first point of contact was side edge of LH

Hence it was a flank hit.

We did consider that the Pike would wheel back to line up in overlap, but as it hit the flank, the rules on p70 seem quite clear that the pike SHOULD have wheeled into side contact.

Trouble is this seemed like an extreme move that pulled the pike impossibly out of line, had them wheeling through another enemy BG and left them with an exposed flank...

patwarg's comment that 'as long as both players agree it's fine' is OK for friendly play (we agreed it was silly for the pike to wheel around, even though i had some lancers knocking about (just out of the picture) in the rear ready to spring forward on such a juicy target)...however, how should this be resolved for tournament play?

Yes you are correct it will teach me to look the reference up next time before giving a reply. I was looking at the pike element what hit the LH not that any one full element from the BG behind the LH flank.

Andy

nikgaukroger wrote:

Luddite wrote:
The problem came when we tried to conform the Pike block. Hmm.

What happens?

From the rules (p70), we determined that the pikes should wheel to line up facing/in contact with the LH flank. Is this correct?

The problem is:

1. This REALLY pulled the pike out of position which seems a bit extreme
2. The pikes in wheeling into contact would actually contact the opponent spearmen enagaed in combat to their right.

In the end, we actually decided to go with the 'troops that cannot conform...' bullet point (p71) and said that the pikes remained where they were but continued to fight in a flank contact.

I would just note that the rules say you conform by pivot and/or sliding so thinking in terms of wheeling may not be suitable.

That said it looks to me from the picture that there is room for the flanking BG to fit so it must do so.

Yes, that caused us some confusion and actully led to our conclusion that the pike block didn't conform.

We couldn't see how the pikes could 'slide or pivot' into a legal contact so decided they didn't move as there's nothing about them wheeling into conformity.

But isn't a wheel just a pivot about one of the BG's front corners?

Paul

Of course, but you can slide as well if needed which you cannot do in a wheel.