Slitherine

Situation as below:

LF..LF....................
LF..LF..........Co..Co....
LF..LF..........Co..Co....
............Cv..Cv..........
............Cv..Cv..........

LF = BG of 6LF facing Right of Page on flank of Co.
Co = BG of 4 Companions facing down page in melee with Cv.
Cv = BG of 4 Cavalry facing up page in melee with Co.
Cv and Co are each overlapping each other on one flank.

Questions:
1. The LF are prevented from charging into contact with the Co (Page 60). However, can they MOVE into contact? Presumably the answer will depend on whether the LFs new position would count as an official 'overlap position' as described on Page 75 (surprisingly it appears to my reading they cannot)?Hopefully I have missed something and someone will explain how the LF can legally move into contact.
2. If the LF can be moved legally into contact, could the Cv currently acting as an overlap be repostioned to the other side of the melee to 'match up' with the Companions. The rationale being that as showed in the diagram on Page 86 i.e. they would no longer be contributing to the melee so can be moved...?
3. If instead the LF were at an angle to the flank of the Companions could they be MOVED into contact so that one of their front edges made contact with the rear corner of the Companions i.e. would this count as an overlap position? If yes, presumably it would all conform and straighten up in the next manoeuvre phase?

Any othe roptions/suggestions welcome!

MTIA,

bump - anyone help please....

With the LF positioned as described, it looks as though a "90 degree turn after a simple advance" into front-to-side edge contact would put you into side edge to side edge contact, i.e. an overlap position.

In that case either the LF or the Cv could fight as an overlap (but not both) so the Cv are NOT in a position where they CAN'T fight, but if you decide to fight with the LF then they are in a position where they are not fighting. Check the exact words in the rules. Also check the turn sequence in case feeding more bases into a melee has to be done before any other movement.

I wouldn't like to speculate on your question 3 without the rules in front of me.

Lawrence,

Thanks for your reply. I think you have misunderstood the positioning of the LF in relation to the Companions.
The LF start facing to the 'Right of the Page' i.e. they need not turn but can move straight forward into the Companions Right Flank as they are already facing them...does that help you in helping me?

IF the LF can make this move and IT IS a defined 'overlap position' it seems quite clear that the 'overlapped' Companion is as per the unit 'AA' in the diagram on P.86. In such case, it states clearly that the Companions 'cannot be overlapped on the corner between two contacted edges' and therefore the Cv could be moved in the manouevre phase as they CANNOT currently add dice or POA where as they can if moved - that's how I currently understand it anyhow....? HELP!
Cheers,

Bugle999 wrote:Lawrence,

Thanks for your reply. I think you have misunderstood the positioning of the LF in relation to the Companions.
The LF start facing to the 'Right of the Page' i.e. they need not turn but can move straight forward into the Companions Right Flank as they are already facing them...does that help you in helping me?

IF the LF can make this move and IT IS a defined 'overlap position' it seems quite clear that the 'overlapped' Companion is as per the unit 'AA' in the diagram on P.86. In such case, it states clearly that the Companions 'cannot be overlapped on the corner between two contacted edges' and therefore the Cv could be moved in the manouevre phase as they CANNOT currently add dice or POA where as they can if moved - that's how I currently understand it anyhow....? HELP!
Cheers,

An overlap possition is not one where you are in frontal contact with enemy. You would be doing so here and therfore your LH must charge. They don't need a CT because it is a flank charge but they would be at a dice dissadvantage unless the companions are less than steady.

Once you have charged the rear base then the rest of the LH BG would be able to fight as an overlap, at least that is my take on this question.

Looking at the definitions of overlap possitions on P 75 and 76 which overlap possition do you think you are moving into?

I puzzled over this one! I dont think that the LF can move into any kind of contact with the Companions. They cant charge unless the Co are broken and they cant ovelap as the cav are in that position. They cant shoot either once the melee is formed.

Maybe they just have to seek a role elsewhere in the battle?

Martin

WhiteKnight wrote:I puzzled over this one! I dont think that the LF can move into any kind of contact with the Companions. They cant charge unless the Co are broken and they cant ovelap as the cav are in that position. They cant shoot either once the melee is formed.

Maybe they just have to seek a role elsewhere in the battle?

Martin

DOH!

Sorry, my brain (or at least the bit that is working at the moment) missread LF as LH....

There is IMO no way for these LF to affect this combat, regardless of where they start their move.

LF are skirmishers and can't charge anything other than skirmishers unless what they are charging is either in some kind of terrain or broken.

A number of people seem to think that a bloke in a loin cloth armed if he is lucky with a fruit knife is willing to charge into close combat with someone wearing lots of armour and wielding a big sword. I know what I would do if I had the fruit knife and it isn't charge into combat.

If the cavalry were fighting fully lined up with the companions then the LF could move to an overlap next to the cavalry and would add one whole dice at -- to the combat. Probably still best to find a use for them elsewhere on the field.

Hammy,
Thanks for your summary regarding what the LF can do in this circumstance (i.e. nothing) - the way you describe it makes perfect sense (other than maybe a fruit knife!!). Unfortunately, I suppose I am guilty of mixing my previous rule sets experience and was expecting the LF could add some additional weight to the melee somehow...

As a follow up, if the LF had been MF and 'charged' into flank contact would this have allowed the repositioning of the Left File of Cv to the right hand side of the melee infront of the Companions. I thought this correct as this file of the Cv can no longer count as an overlap in that position but can add dice by the repositioning.

Thoughts...

Bugle999 wrote:Hammy,
Thanks for your summary regarding what the LF can do in this circumstance (i.e. nothing) - the way you describe it makes perfect sense (other than maybe a fruit knife!!). Unfortunately, I suppose I am guilty of mixing my previous rule sets experience and was expecting the LF could add some additional weight to the melee somehow...

As a follow up, if the LF had been MF and 'charged' into flank contact would this have allowed the repositioning of the Left File of Cv to the right hand side of the melee infront of the Companions. I thought this correct as this file of the Cv can no longer count as an overlap in that position but can add dice by the repositioning.

Thoughts...

Yes, I think that had the LF been anything else and charged in then the companions would be doomed.

MF charging would auto dirsupt the companions, then the left base of cavalry which would not be contributing to the melee could use the feeding in more bases rule to move over and you would end up with a big dice advantage and an extra POA for fighting in two directions.

lawrenceg wrote:With the LF positioned as described, it looks as though a "90 degree turn after a simple advance" into front-to-side edge contact would put you into side edge to side edge contact, i.e. an overlap position.

Sorry, the move I was trying to describe was:

The LF advance straight ahead until they contact the companions. Then the LF turn 90 degrees to end in side-edge-to-side-edge contact with the companions. This is listed on the movement table as "turn 90 degrees with a simple advance before or after", in this case the simple advance is "before". This would be an overlap position as defined in the rules (in the beta version anyway, which is all I have with me). However, it looks as though you can only move into this postion if you don't contact any enemy bases apart from the one you are overlapping (i.e the one with your friends in contact with its front) and this would render the move illegal - check the final wording.

As has been pointed out, one extra dice at -- is not a lot of help, but it is better than nothing.

In that case either the LF or the Cv could fight as an overlap (but not both) so the Cv are NOT in a position where they CAN'T fight, but if you decide to fight with the LF then they are in a position where they are not fighting. Check the exact words in the rules.

The general question that I was alluding to here was:

If two bases are both in overlap against the same enemy, so only one can actually fight, is it allowable to feed one of them into the melee elsewhere?

Lawrence,
Thanks for clarification.
How does your LF 'advance and 90 degree turn' suggestion get you 1 more dice in combat?
I think the only way it does is if the Left file of Cv are also subsequently repositioned into the other side of the melee?
Like you I am unclear as to whether this is a legal move or not - can authors help please?
Thanks.

Deferring to the Oracle eh!

How does your LF 'advance and 90 degree turn' suggestion get you 1 more dice in combat?
I think the only way it does is if the Left file of Cv are also subsequently repositioned into the other side of the melee?
Like you I am unclear as to whether this is a legal move or not - can authors help please?

To get your 1 more dice in combat.....(requiring a 5 - so of dubious value)

Advance with the LF to with 1/2 base of the Co.
Turn to the left facing the same way as the Cv.
Slide 1/2 base sideways into overlap position. (as described in the section 'Moving into contact with enemy battlegroups)
(I think you can also do as Lawrence suggests and contact Co before turning - since it's not a charge and they end up in overlap position only.)

This now means that the ONLY bases entitled to fight in the overlapping 'FILE' are the 2 LF bases.
The relevent section is under 'Overlaps':
"Each overlapping file fights with the same net points of advantage (pOa) and same number of ranks as if it was in front edge contact with the overlapped enemy base."

Note - the use of the term 'FILE' as opposed to BG.

Since the 2 cavalry bases no longer get a dice, they can move over so that Cv will match the front of Co


All this for 1 extra dice on a 5 !!!!!
The LF may be better used elsewhere - or, if Cv is winning the combat, standing behind Co would destroy them if they were eventually broken.

Thanks all for the input... very enlightening!

Bugle999 wrote:Hammy,
Thanks for your summary regarding what the LF can do in this circumstance (i.e. nothing) - the way you describe it makes perfect sense (other than maybe a fruit knife!!). Unfortunately, I suppose I am guilty of mixing my previous rule sets experience and was expecting the LF could add some additional weight to the melee somehow...

...

Thoughts...

You could use the LF (if you have >=50% the cav numbers) as 'support' for cohesion. IMO that is an excellent use of skirmishers. +1 on 2d6 makes a big difference. If they aren't going to be much use elsewhere or if this fight is important, then I'd move them behind your cav to support them.

Monty

Skirmishers cannot provide rear support - see the "Rear Support" definition in the glossary.

Paul

Ah bummer and sorry for mentioning the wrong answer.

Monty