Slitherine

Hi All

I played in the first FoG convention in New Zealand with a late Republican. My army had 3 battle groups of elite legions, with 6 bases in each battle group. I had one win, a winning draw and two loses. I was not happy with the results, because the only reason I won one battle and drew the other was because these opponents could not avoid my legions. In the other two battles I faced a Portuguese Medieval Army and Macedonians and lost.

I know a significant contributor to my defeats was my poor generalship. I would appreciate advice on how to prevent my opponents attacking the weak flanks of my late republican army and avoiding fighting my legions.

I am also thinking of re-designing the army and would appreciate your comments on the the new design.

New proposed army

Order of march Troops Type Armour Quality Training Shooting POA Impact POA Melee POA Special Number of bases Point per base BG value
. Commander in Chief IC - - - - - - - 1 80 80
. Sub-general TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
. Sub-general TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
. Fortified Camp CAMP - - - - - - - 1 24 24
1 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
2 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
3 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
4 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
5 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
6 Legionaries HF Armoured Elite Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 17 68
7 Velities LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 4 24
8 Velities LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 4 24
9 Spanish Scutarii MF Protected Average Undrilled - Impact foot Swordmen - 8 7 56
10 Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 7 42
11 Syrian horse archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 4 8 32
12 Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6 16 96

Old army used at braveheart

Order of march Troops Type Armour Quality Training Shooting POA Impact POA Melee POA Special Number of bases Point per base BG value
. Commander in Chief IC - - - - - - - 1 80 80
. Sub-general TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
. Sub-general TC - - - - - - - 1 35 35
. Fortified Camp CAMP - - - - - - - 1 24 24
1 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
2 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
3 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
4 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
5 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
6 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordmen - 4 14 56
7 Velites LF Protected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 5 30
8 Velites LF Protected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 5 30
9 Spanish Scutarii MF Protected Average Undrilled - Impact foot Swordmen - 8 7 56
10 Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 6 7 42
11 Heavy Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6 16 96
12 Syrian Horse Archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 4 8 32

seansmith wrote: I would appreciate advice on how to prevent my opponents attacking the weak flanks of my late republican army and avoiding fighting my legions.

I am also thinking of re-designing the army and would appreciate your comments on the the new design.

Well, I don't have the answer. This is just really some initial thoughts...

First, the differences between your old and new list aren't significant enough to make any real difference.

Second, drop the IC and either take either (ideally) 4 TCs or a FC and 3 TCs (if you must). The army is hard enough not to need the IC, and you need as many points as you can get for troops.

Third, EVERYONE knows in FOG the legionaries are hard. So everyone will avoid them and go for the supports. In your design you can take out all the supports, not touch the legionaries, and win (because 50% of the BGs are non-legionaries). You can either:

- increase the number of legionary BGs, although that will probably results in draws, or
- make sure your supports are tough enough to hang around long enough for the leginaries to support the supports

Fourth, looking at the army design:

- I'd drop the horse archers - they are too few to do any real damage and are likely to be picked off. Besides, this is a contact army, not a shooty army
- take the heavy cav as 2 units of 4, not 1 bg of 6. The advantage of 4's is that they can switch in one expansion/contraction between skirmish order (1 rank deep) and battle order (2 ranks deep). This means the heavy cav can either fight or skirmish, as circumstance dictates.
- possibly drop one unit of leginaries. Use that to buy more LF - ideally 6 cretan archers & 6 slingers.
- Army size of 12 is okay, getting to 14 with the use of LF is (possibly!) better.
- consider taking the velites as protected

Finally, I suspect that your success will be down to terrain. If you go for difficult terrain, you might be able to channel the avenues of attack. MF is disordered in difficult terrain, so LF can be a bit handier (although MF will probably still win - but it becomes harder). 1x8 MF vs 2 x 6 LF in difficult terrain (especially if you can get an uphill) - isn't a "guaranteed" win. So does your opponent commit 2 BG of MF? If so, you get the option of skirmishing. Of course, if you end up on steppe it gets a bit tougher

Try experimenting is all I can really suggest.

Hope that helps

Look too at the possible allies the Romans can have. The Armenians bring some cataphracts that will have staying power against most mounted ( although knights will chew them up ) also the Jewish ally provides some quality rough going troops, 3 x 6 OS are not to be ignored if you can get enough terrain on he board to anchor a flank on.

I would change the IC to a TC - I don't think you gain sufficient benefit for the extra points.
I would drop the MF and replace them with another "legion" - the legions probably as good in minor terrain and you don't want to fight in heavy terrain.
Upgrade 1 velites to protected - this lets them beat other LF in melee.
Change the other velite BG ot slingers or bowmen.
Change the 4 LH Bow to creatan archers LH Bow Superior.
I would probably drop the other LH and have 2 BG of 4 Cav - this will drop the pre battle initiave to +0 meaning you get to move first more often.

Deploy 1, or 2 legions, behind each end of the line, they can be detached off later to cover flanks.

Thanks for that advice. Having a legion behind another at end of the line is a good idea and historical i.e what Caesar did to Pompeii. I not so sure about dropping the LC though. It will allow my opponents to slow the advance of my legions with his LC. His LC having forced my LF to retreat. I can see the logic in not having an IC, but I think I need at least on FC. An army with generals who all TCs has problems with forming battlelines.

Hi sean,

Altough I have not played FOG or even have the rulebook in house yet (Yeah I know I am working on the issue ) I would like to comment on your dilemma.

First off altough it seems tempting to start redoing the army etc etc it might be a good idea to look at how you fought the battles. Especially the loosing ones. Playing with a Roman army of this type will always have "weak" flanks due to the staggering cost of the core legionairs. Have you tought of playing a very attackminded / aggressive style with your chaps ? Altough he might be able to threaten your flanks if you deploy as far forward as possible and make a mad dash for his main line you ought to be able to go up and over.

Of course this is a very simple statement.
By looking at your army and if you feel the need to change it you might consider the following:

Downgrade (if possible?) your legions to normal quality instead of Elite. Not even superior or whatever term FOG gives them. That way you should be able to save a lot of points. Also in this period it was not uncommon to have 1 or 2 legions in the center and 1 allied "legion" on either side. So maybe it might be an option to also reduce the number of legion units to 4 and replace the 2 legion units by Italian Allies. That way you still get a hard as nails center (legions) a reasonable flank (or both) with your allied Italians and you have enough points left to make sure your opponents lights will not be spoiling your mad dash towards his main line.

Now as mentioned before I have not played the game, dont have the rules and I am no competition player as is, but I always look at the way how things would work out in real life, where most of the time after loosing a battle there was no time/money or poosibility to replace troops at will, but something could be done about deployment, and the way of fighting.

So good luck with your tough decisions.

René

One small point of clarification:

Legions of Italian allies were indeed a feature of Mid-Republican Roman armies, c. 275-105 BC. However, that distinction no longer existed in the "post-Marian" legions of the Late Republic.

Cheers,
Scott