Slitherine

Had a fun 800 pt game Seleucid(me) vs Parthian

Seleucid organized as follows (12 BGs in order of March) IC and 3XTC

1 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
2 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
3 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
4 4 elite, armoured, cavalry, lance swords
5 8 LF average, unprot, slingers
6 8 LF average, unprot, slingers
7 8 HF superior, protected pike
8 4 Cataphracts, averaged, heavy armor, lancer, swords
9 4 Cataphracts, averaged, heavy armor, lancer, swords
10 6 MF, average, protected, offensive spear
11 8 LF, average, bows
12 4 Cavalry, undrilled, bows, swords

Parthians were 14 BGs mostly 5 of catapharcts (including one cataphract camels) rest mostly LH with an FC and 3XTC


Seleucid had the initiative and choose agricultural (I think, not steppes). Right Seleucid flank is full of uneven and rough bits no other significant terrain.

Both sides baggage goes down on the seleucid right.

The Seleucids deploy their phalanx with the right near, but not anchored on the terrain. The plan is to use the phalanx to drive forward with the Thureophoroi, archers and Skythians on their right (near the terrain), the Seleucid cavalry is deployed on the open Seleucid left. The slingers go in front of the Phalanx.

The Parthians deploy a LH screen over much of the table with the Cataphrats aiming to circle aroudn the Seleucid left to get at the Seleucid cavalry and flanks.

Things develop mostly as both sides intend, but the Seleucid right is strong enough to see off any danger there (only LH no Cats threatening so the spear, archers and Skythians are pretty unstoppable) with only the CiCs slightly incompetent handling of the troops slowing them down.

In teh center the Pike/slinger team is tough on teh LH if they get close the 16 LF are quite capable of shooting it out with the LH. The LH periodically charge causing the slingers to evade behind the phalanx and the phalanx to charge in turn forcing the LH to evade and the whole lot to advance.

Meanwhile the Seleucid cavalry wing doesn't like the odds it is seeing and hangs back. The whole seleucid army starts to wheel to it's left to cut the table down in size and start the pikes towards something to hit, the cataphracts.

About the 4th turn things start to happen as the Parthians have mis-judged the cataphract maneuver and the Argyraspids are in position to charge a 4 block of cataphracts. They do and on the charge kill the Parthian CiC. Seleucid Cataphracts come up on the Argyraspid left to support and another block of Pike on teh right chase off some skirmishers and provide overlaps.

The cataphracts supporting take risk in that some LH could charge them in the flank, but they fail their CMT and the Cataphracts in front of them fall apart allowign the Seleucids to turn 90 degrees and face off the LH.

Meanwhile the the rest of the Seleucid cavalry is gamely trying to hold up but being beated by the sheer weight of Parthian numbers on the Seleucid left flank. Fortunately, after the wins on teh center and right the pike are free to turn 90 degrees and start marching over to the Seleucid left to face off against the Parthian Cataphracts who are now committed. While the Parthians have defeated most of the Seleucid cavalry wing, they see a the remaining Seleucid cataphracts supported by 3 BGs of Pikes closing with no escape possible and surrender.

This was a really interesting game that really showed how this system is hugely different from DBM. There was a lot of maneuver on both sides, both the obvious Parthian skirmish and deployment and the decisive Seleucid redeployment of Pikes. Generals were very busy here being in the right place to get BGs double moving into good positions. Looking back it really came down to the Parthians cutting the corner too closely on the pikemen, forcing an enagement a bit early for Parthian tastes. Still the ability of the Seleucids to redeploy the pike was very interesting, a couple of 4 blocks of LH just aren't enough of a threat against even pretty modest forces (6 offensive spear, 8 slingers and 8 pike) which given the Seleucid interior lines let the pike move to a decisive position.

Certainly these battles are not hopeless as the regular army and are vastly more interesting than a similar fight in DBM. In retrospect I would re-order my march a bit to something like:

1 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
2 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
3 8 HF average, protected, drilled Pike
4 4 elite, armoured, cavalry, lance swords
5 8 LF average, unprot, slingers
6 8 LF average, unprot, slingers
7 8 HF superior, protected pike
8 4 Cataphracts, averaged, heavy armor, lancer, swords
9 6 MF, average, protected, offensive spear
10 4 Cataphracts, averaged, heavy armor, lancer, swords
11 8 LF, average, bows
12 4 Cavalry, undrilled, bows, swords

Which would let me put some decisive troops into the last batch to go down. I am still not sure on what is the right mix of Javelins, bows and slings (and Cretans) in teh skirmish group. Probably the right answer is "any of the above" and what is best depends on what you are facing. I think I like slings better than bows though (an extra AP for long range fire doesn't seem worth it) but can only get 16 slingers...The Skythians as cavalry are a nice little group though brittle so be careful with them.

I really like the idea of the Agema but wonder if you would be better off with another 4 block of perhaps superior cataphracts...tough call on that. The phalanx goes down first as the Seleucid army deployment is going to based around them no matter what, so you might as well have the down as just reserve a big whole in the middle for them anyway. Nothing matches up against them so what you want to be sure of is the best flanks for the phalanx as possible...Oh the Agema go down early on the theory that they are deployed behind the Phalanx as potential rear support and are the main army reserve.

Great report Ethan,

One question, you mention the pikes charging cataphracts, that is a very risky proposition for the pikes. Did you miss some POAs? It should be an even fight as the pike don't get a + for the first three ranks of pike and the cataphracts do count lance.

That is an interesting take on Seleucids. I tried them for the first time the other week, I have got my pikes in 12's and have only one BG of six Cataphracts. Have you found that pikes in 8's tend to get dragged about and then "double overlapped" (i.e. 8 dice against 4)?

I have noticed that cataphracts in sixes are very powerful, so went for one BG of six rather than 2 of four.

I recommend you find the points to upgrade the slingers to bow. I have gone for Tarantino Light Horse rather than your cavalry so that is a good place to find the points!

Arse, I should have killed his pikes with the cats ?

Seriously, it was a fun game, and the camel cats were fun to use.

Sounds like really fun game. I have used both. What I like is that the Parthian feels like a real Parthian and Seleucids a proper Pk army.

Yes the realistic mechanic is in the rules in that the Pikes hold and the Cataphracts will find it hard to resist charging them.

You can of course risk charing the catparhacts on evens but its a risk. If you sruvive the impact the pikes are back in good shape and will cause much trouble. But if they DISR then the Sw counts and with Harm is evens again with less dice. Life is not without risk.

Now back to finishing my 25mm Marian Roman army - nearly ready to go.

Si

Scrumpy wrote:Arse, I should have killed his pikes with the cats ?

Seriously, it was a fun game, and the camel cats were fun to use.

The trick is to advance the pikes so that the ctaphracts are in the restircted area of the pikes then wait for the cataphracts to fail a don't charge CMT.

Dave pretty boy Ruddock wrote:
I recommend you find the points to upgrade the slingers to bow. I have gone for Tarantino Light Horse rather than your cavalry so that is a good place to find the points!

I wouldn't bust a gut on this though, personally I've found slingers quite effective and for skirmishers long range shooting with bows doesn't usually do anything unless you mass loads.

My favourite skirmishers are the baleraic slingers. In general I find slingers pretty useful - had 2 Bgs in my Britons and they work nicely. Not much worse than Bows in practice.

Si

shall wrote:My favourite skirmishers are the baleraic slingers. In general I find slingers pretty useful - had 2 Bgs in my Britons and they work nicely. Not much worse than Bows in practice.

Si

I agree with Si here. In practice an 8 block of Bws gets 2 dice IIRC at long range. Unlikely to do very much.

I think we mis-read the POA on the Pk charging Cataphracts (we though it was + to Pike) although I don't think it made much difference in practice to the game.

One question came up. A group of 3 elements (having lost one due to shooting) is fighting 2 different enemy BGs with 2 stands on one group and one on the other. This group is also losing 1 dice per three. How should it dice?

I think it gets one dice against each enemy but weren't 100% on that. I don't know if it is in the FAQ yet, but clearing up dice allocation in these circumstances would be nice.

dave_r wrote:That is an interesting take on Seleucids. I tried them for the first time the other week, I have got my pikes in 12's and have only one BG of six Cataphracts. Have you found that pikes in 8's tend to get dragged about and then "double overlapped" (i.e. 8 dice against 4)?

I have noticed that cataphracts in sixes are very powerful, so went for one BG of six rather than 2 of four.

I recommend you find the points to upgrade the slingers to bow. I have gone for Tarantino Light Horse rather than your cavalry so that is a good place to find the points!

I have mixed views on 8 vs 12 for the Pikes, both have things to recommend them. The advantage of 3 8s vs 2 12s is twofold IMO:

- You deploy 3 BGs instead of 2. For a 12 BG army this lets' the Phalanx go down as one quarter of your army.
- You only fight on a 2 wide frontage which can make them hard to beat.

This is balanced against the obviously greater toughness of 12 stand groups.

If I had gone for the Tarantines I would have gone for a BG of 6 costing 42 points instead of 40 points of Skythians. A long BG of 4 LH in an army doesn't seem terribly useful to me.

As I said long range LF fire is pretty ineffectual IMO. For me the real question is when and if to take Javelins. A nice thing about Hellenistic armies is you can pretty much take whatever skirmishers you want...The interesting bow question is whether to take 8 average or 6 superior (32AP vs 30AP so about a wash).

ethan wrote:One question came up. A group of 3 elements (having lost one due to shooting) is fighting 2 different enemy BGs with 2 stands on one group and one on the other. This group is also losing 1 dice per three. How should it dice?

I think it gets one dice against each enemy but weren't 100% on that. I don't know if it is in the FAQ yet, but clearing up dice allocation in these cirumstances would be nice.

You are right, one dice against each enemy.

When you have to lose dice against multiple opponents first you lose 1 per full 3 fighting one opponent then if there are still dice to lose you lose from where you have 2 bases fighting in preference to 1 base. Only if you have the same number of bases fighting each oppoennt can you choose so if you had 4 bases fighting 2 against each opponent then you would get the choice of which one to lose a dice against.

There is a bit about it on P94 of the rules but it could be more detailed.

Here is my version:

4*TC (140)
1*4 Agema Cav, Elite, Armoured, Drilled, Lance, Sword (80)
1*6 Cataphracts Cat, Superior, Heavily Armoured, Drilled, Lance, Sword (120)
1*8 Argyraspides HF, Superior, Armoured, Drilled, Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen (112)
2*12 Pikemen HF, Average, Protected, Drilled, Pikemen (144)
1*6 Thorakitai, MF, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spearmen (60)
2*6 Archers, LF, Average, Bow (60)
1*6 Slingers, LF, Poor, Sling (12)
1*6 Javelinmen, LF, Average, Javelin, Light Spear (24)
1*4 Tarantine, LH, Average, Javelin, Light Spear (28)
1*8 Mob, Poor (16)

12 BG's (796)

I have butchered Pike in the past where they have killed something, all followed up different distances and then been taken apart piecemeal. Hence I am going for 12's to try and alleviate this problem.

Use plenty of LF - use the long range of the bows (combined with the much bigger shooting arc) to hurt other skirmishers, using Tarantines and the Light Spear to protect them from other "nasty" skirmishers. I would love to get the Tarantines in a 6, but... At long range I can get four dice with my LF, which is not to be sniffed at. They also normally have the advantage that enemy LF cannot retire out of range whilst maintaining face.

Hopefully skirmish on one half of the table and use the heavy foot on the other side, holding the Cataphracts and Agema in reserve.

Worked well in the one game I have had so far, but time will tell I guess. It is a fun army to use in any case and more importantly I think it is the first time my Seleucids have been out of the box for about four years...

dave_r wrote:
1*6 Thorakitai, MF, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spearmen (60)

Armoured it should be noted - cute troops

One question came up. A group of 3 elements (having lost one due to shooting) is fighting 2 different enemy BGs with 2 stands on one group and one on the other. This group is also losing 1 dice per three. How should it dice?

I think it gets one dice against each enemy but weren't 100% on that. I don't know if it is in the FAQ yet, but clearing up dice allocation in these circumstances would be nice.

See page 94

To expand what you do is always drop the dice from where the majority but always leave one. So in this case take it from the 2 getting 1 dice against each.

If you had 7 dice with 3 against 1 BG and 2 against 2 others BG and were losing 1 per 3 on all of them then..... The first fice goes from the 3 as this is the majority. That deals with that 3 so you are then left with 2 and 2 to lose a dice from and it is equal you can choose. So there it would end up 2-1-2 or 2-2-1.

Hope that helps.

Si

My Parthians for the record were.

8 BG of 4 LH Unp Und Ave B -- -- ( 6 Parthian, 2 Hatrene allies )
4 BG of 4 CT HArm Und Sup -- La Sw
1 BG of 4 CT HArm Und Sup -- La Sw ( Hatrene Camels )
1 BG of 6 LF Unp Und Ave B -- -- ( Hatrene Archers )
1 FC C-in-C
2 TC Subs
1 TC ally

I don't think I would tinker with the list that much, and as Ethan said, I juct cut my out-flanking too short.

I must kick all the dbm thinking out too, I could have put my baggage in the furthest corner from the Selucids, but was worried about a flank-march. Does anyone actually flank march under these rules ?

Cheers

An interesting difference to keep in mind in these "heavey v light" fights is that the lights are unlikely to significantly outnumber the heavies in terms of numbers of BGs.

So unlike in DBM where as the heavy player you try to hermetically seal off the table to prevent people getting at your flanks, in FoG you can play a bit looser - espeically on the part of the table that is being ignored by the lighter player. The light player probably lacks enough troops to really mass against you and is just trying to slow you down.

I found that my BG of MF Thureophoroi were quite happy to chasing around a LH BG for th latter half of the game. They never caught them but they kep them busy didn't really take any damage and the fact that they had an "exposed" flank just didn't matter - who would hit it? This created the ability for the Pike to withdraw from the line to go after the cataphracts which did matter a lot.

In DBM the Thureophoroi would have been swarmed under by LH but here you have to committ much more to achieve that effect and you probably don't have enough BGs to do that many places. This also points out the importance of getting some value out of as many BGs as possible. You don't have little odds groups of 4 LH(F) everywhere to effectively threaten flanks.

My numidians do a lot but otherwise I haven't much

Si

Did the Parthian LH concentrate fire? If they can walk some BGs around a flank then they can potentially have 3 BGs (6 dice) shooting at one enemy BG.

When I started playing FoG I worried too much about LH getting on my flanks and rear and overcommitted to countering that. Then I read the section that says skirmishers do not automatically degrade the cohesion of non-skirmishers when they charge in the flank/rear. So the non-skirmishers would have to sweat an impact combat at -2 POA but twice the dice; after that the LH has more cause to worry. If the LH charge foot on their own and don't disrupt them, then they break off, the foot reform and go on their merry way.

So, I've come to think that skirmishers harass heavies better by shooting than by charging. They can't physically slow them down except by sacrificing themselves (after passing the CMT where the skirmishers say to the general, "You want us to do what?").

rtaylor wrote:Did the Parthian LH concentrate fire? If they can walk some BGs around a flank then they can potentially have 3 BGs (6 dice) shooting at one enemy BG.

They did, but my point is that they can't do this many places at once. The Parthians concentrated 6 BGs of LH on the flank they wanted to attack, but that only left 2 BGs on the other flank. Now 8 LH(F) in DBM could dance around a lot and given some open space probably work into a flank. In FoG they just can't do much against 3 other enemy BGs who just keep turning/wheeling/charging to stay lined up on them and charge when they can.

Concentrating 6 dice of shooting is certainly one of the most powerful things a LH army can do and it is very nice, but that is 3 of 14 BGs in teh Parthian army...

ethan wrote:

rtaylor wrote:Concentrating 6 dice of shooting is certainly one of the most powerful things a LH army can do and it is very nice, but that is 3 of 14 BGs in teh Parthian army...

Agreed. It seems you just can't skirmish effectively on the cheap.