Slitherine

As usual there will be a 900 point FOGR Doubles Tournament at Devizes in July.

This year the proposed theme will be:

Horsemen of the Apocalypse - Goodnight Vienna!

Dates: 1680-1690.

Armies to be chosen from the following lists:

Later Russian
Later Polish & Lithuanian
Later Ottoman
Tartar
Hungarian Kuruc Rebellion
Habsburg Austrian Imperial (Eastern)
Later German States
Later Swedish

The following list modifications and additional restrictions will apply:

Foot
1) The army cannot include more than 4 battle groups with any pikemen or bayonet capability.
2) No more than half of the foot battle troops in the army can be Superior or Elite.

Mounted Troops
3) The army must include at least 24 bases of mounted battle troops.
4) No more than half of the mounted battle troops in the army can be Superior or Elite.
5) Armies with insufficient Superior mounted battle troops in their army list to achieve this limit can upgrade whichever type of Average mounted troops in their list is most expensive in points to Superior up to the above limit.

Artillery
6) Armies must include at least 6 bases of foot battle troops for each base of Medium or Heavy Artillery.

This theme is not yet finalised. Comments will be welcome - particularly regarding any loophole which might spoil the theme.

I have some questions:-

1) Can Allies be used, and if so, do the normal list rules for their use apply where there is no conflict with the tournament regulations?

2) If so, must any tournament maxima/minima - eg Superior/Elite-to-Average/Poor ratios, or foot bases per heavy/medium gun - apply to both contingents individually, or to the army as a whole (eg can an Allied contingent have an imbalance of Superior/Elite units if the main contingent balances them out)?

3) Can an Ally list minimum/maximum be ignored if it causes the army as a whole to exceed the tournament limits (eg a Bavarian army with Austrian allies would have a combined minimum of 5 (3:2) foot BGs with pike or bayonet - 1 too many - so could 1 of the Austrians be ignored)?

4) With specific regard to the Later German States [LGS] list - just to confirm that 24 (or more?) bases - ie 6 BGs - of horse can be deployed, as opposed to the usual maximum of 20 (5 BGs); and up to half of the horse BGs can be raised to Superior (but not Elite?), whereas only Average are allowed normally?

Thanks.

RonanTheLibrarian wrote:I have some questions:-

1) Can Allies be used, and if so, do the normal list rules for their use apply where there is no conflict with the tournament regulations?

Yes

2) If so, must any tournament maxima/minima - eg Superior/Elite-to-Average/Poor ratios, or foot bases per heavy/medium gun - apply to both contingents individually, or to the army as a whole (eg can an Allied contingent have an imbalance of Superior/Elite units if the main contingent balances them out)?

The army as a whole

3) Can an Ally list minimum/maximum be ignored if it causes the army as a whole to exceed the tournament limits (eg a Bavarian army with Austrian allies would have a combined minimum of 5 (3:2) foot BGs with pike or bayonet - 1 too many - so could 1 of the Austrians be ignored)?

No

4) With specific regard to the Later German States [LGS] list - just to confirm that 24 (or more?) bases - ie 6 BGs - of horse can be deployed, as opposed to the usual maximum of 20 (5 BGs); and up to half of the horse BGs can be raised to Superior (but not Elite?), whereas only Average are allowed normally?

Yes

rbodleyscott wrote:

RonanTheLibrarian wrote:3) Can an Ally list minimum/maximum be ignored if it causes the army as a whole to exceed the tournament limits (eg a Bavarian army with Austrian allies would have a combined minimum of 5 (3:2) foot BGs with pike or bayonet - 1 too many - so could 1 of the Austrians be ignored)?

No

Bugger.

Has this been confirmed yet?

I might be up for it, is anyone looking for a partner?

kevinj wrote:Has this been confirmed yet?

I might be up for it, is anyone looking for a partner?

Yes, it is the weekend of 18th & 19th July.

Richard is organising and I will be doing as he tells me.

Don

There should be at least two teams from Wessex Wargames Society (Southampton) - probably Later German (Bavarian) and Later Ottoman.

Any further news on this, for those of us needing to firm up travel/accommodation arrangements?

(It seems the local Travelodge is already fully booked for that weekend.)

RonanTheLibrarian wrote:Any further news on this, for those of us needing to firm up travel/accommodation arrangements?

(It seems the local Travelodge is already fully booked for that weekend.)

Not sure what else you need?

The theme is above, the date is above and if to go on the Devizes Club website the competition organisers details are there.

Don

Kevin, Are you still looking for a partner?

Ben is unable to go so I would be happy to partner you.

Bob

donm2 wrote:Not sure what else you need?

The theme is above, the date is above and if to go on the Devizes Club website the competition organisers details are there.

Ah, I didn't realise we had to sign on with the Devizes folk; not having entered before, I thought it was all being organised on here.

Anyone looking for a partner for Attack!

I am ready to send off form and pay but do not have a partner for the competition.

Bob

Having been persuaded to enter this (having no knowledge of the exotic east) I now find myself looking at the army lists to come up with something.

Now, some of the tournament modifications to the lists I get (artillery restrictions) and presumably limiting P&S is to get a more eastern feel? But why the sudden increase in quality of mounted for some lists? Later Germans, Habsburg Austrians and Russians for instance do not appear to be blessed with a very good mounted arm according to the lists yet now they can field half as Superior? Bit unfair on those lists that genuinely do appear to have Superior mounted (Poles, Tatars, Ottomans, Swedes and Hungarians) and especially if they have few if any Superior foot.

As I said earlier this is a period unknown to me so the rationale behind this would be useful as I can see lots of Superior Pistol Pistol Determined Horse running around when really only the Swedes had them. Or am I wrong?

I think the idea is both to encourage appropriate numbers of cavalry for the period and to keep them on the table for more than a few turns of being "sniped at" by dragoons and artillery.

Vespasian28 wrote:Having been persuaded to enter this (having no knowledge of the exotic east) I now find myself looking at the army lists to come up with something.

Now, some of the tournament modifications to the lists I get (artillery restrictions) and presumably limiting P&S is to get a more eastern feel? But why the sudden increase in quality of mounted for some lists? Later Germans, Habsburg Austrians and Russians for instance do not appear to be blessed with a very good mounted arm according to the lists yet now they can field half as Superior? Bit unfair on those lists that genuinely do appear to have Superior mounted (Poles, Tatars, Ottomans, Swedes and Hungarians) and especially if they have few if any Superior foot.

As I said earlier this is a period unknown to me so the rationale behind this would be useful as I can see lots of Superior Pistol Pistol Determined Horse running around when really only the Swedes had them. Or am I wrong?

We were under-generous to many armies in the Duty & Glory lists, partly to compensate for the improvement in infantry firepower. We did not want Duty and Glory armies to automatically trump earlier armies in open tournaments. It is pretty unlikely that most armies did not have at least a few veteran units of cavalry, especially on the "Eastern Front".

With the theme minimum of 24 bases of mounted battle troops, and maximum of 4 units of pike and shot, nobody (in their right mind) would bring the armies without Superior mounted troops if they were not allowed to upgrade some, which would result in a pretty boring tournament.

However, all that aside, this is a tournament theme. It can be whatever the tournament organiser chooses!

Those who find the theme implausible have the option of not entering.

So you're not worried that people are just going to opt for the Westernised armies now fielding Superior Pistol Pistol Determined horse?

Ah well, lets see what the R&R throws up as I would like to fight some eastern exotic types for a change.

Vespasian28 wrote:So you're not worried that people are just going to opt for the Westernised armies now fielding Superior Pistol Pistol Determined horse?

By the rules of the theme they can only upgrade their most expensive type, so the Austrians and German States can only upgrade Determined Horse Carbine Pistol.

And they can't have more than half upgraded to Superior anyway.

By the rules of the theme they can only upgrade their most expensive type, so the Austrians and German States can only upgrade Determined Horse Carbine Pistol.

Missed that one! I had better let Ronan know as we just did a practice game where his Bavarians missed that point as well

And they can't have more than half upgraded to Superior anyway.

True enough but in my world you can have two units of Superior Cavaliers take out five units of Parliamentarians, who were uphill, with the loss of one base and in our first test game for Devizes a unit of Superior Later Russian horse took out three units of cavalry without breaking sweat. But that's my dice for you and explains my Superior DH Pistol Pistol phobia

Vespasian28 wrote:True enough but in my world you can have two units of Superior Cavaliers take out five units of Parliamentarians, who were uphill, with the loss of one base and in our first test game for Devizes a unit of Superior Later Russian horse took out three units of cavalry without breaking sweat. But that's my dice for you and explains my Superior DH Pistol Pistol phobia

You mean the Russians might be viable? That is good news.

Richard and I have decided on an army and checked and double checked our list.

Will be very interesting to see what others decide to use.

Don