Slitherine

I played the available PC build, and enjoyed it very much.

This game has tons of potential, and depicts counterinsurgency fighting well. I've yet to see a game attempt to model this style of warfare. Why? Probably because it's extremely difficult, and because insurgents are often unpredictable, and programming an AI to act like an insurgent is difficult.

Some feedback on the PC build:
1. We need more depth and feedback - we need some kind of clue regarding enemy location, and local sentiment towards US forces. The fact that game visually depicts a villages' allegiance is great, but it needs to go further.

2. Players need a higher-level intelligence source to provide a baseline understanding of the enemy. Perhaps after every turn a more detailed report of enemy movement and developments? Perhaps provide the player with suspected enemy goals? The bottom line is that players need more information to establish a game plan.

3. Players need Civil Affairs units. 'CA' units are designed assist locals and build trust/support from the local populace. In-game CA units should be able to develop construction projects to build village support. Much like engineer units can build Army structures, CA units should be able to build civilian structures. It would be nice if the game offered villiage management like Civilization offers city management, with the ability to add and see structures. Bottom line, players should be able to convert money into local support. Money as a weapon system.

Hi Mike, you are absolutely spot on with all three of your observations.

The INTEL part of this game is critical, I used flags above the villages to give the player clues of areas of activity, by 'needs to go further' , what are you thinking ?

The game plan part of the game I tried to cover with having pins in a map showing previous contacts as well as current contacts, this way the player could effectively triangulate the whereabouts of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, in the upcoming release this has been expanded upon to include a screen of current or recent contacts and a separate toggle for all previous contacts. Also have included an ambush option for US infantry, so figure out where the trail is and then lay ambush, let me know your thinking, really enjoying the feedback

CA and aid are very much missing at this stage, currently working on an adaption of this model which has a full civilian/infrastructure piece, it stems from the need for the player to be able to effect the Hearts and Minds of a village without having to wait for a combat situation. To counter this, in the upcoming release of V65, we have included in the release that whenever a US patrol enters a village the HM for that village increases marginally, kinda enabling the US player to influnce HM in the village.

Thanks again for the feedback !

Vietnam65 wrote:The INTEL part of this game is critical, I used flags above the villages to give the player clues of areas of activity, by 'needs to go further' , what are you thinking ?

There needs to be almost an RPG-style layer with each village. Each village, or group of villages should have its own story and dialogue to go with it. There should be information cards on each village leader. "Village Leader X fought in World War II and worked with American forces", "Village Y is suffering from malnutrition and would benefit from medical attention", or "Village Z provided Soldiers to fight against the French".

Along the same lines there should be dialogue clues when US forces go into villages. I'd suggest a rule, that if a US unit is within a village for one turn, it generates dialogue at the start of the next turn. This can be as simple as a village leader telling the player that "he has heard of NVA movement north of the village" or something abstract such as "the village needs help with x,y, or z"

Vietnam65 wrote:The game plan part of the game I tried to cover with having pins in a map showing previous contacts as well as current contacts, this way the player could effectively triangulate the whereabouts of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, in the upcoming release this has been expanded upon to include a screen of current or recent contacts and a separate toggle for all previous contacts.

That's great, but it can always be more detailed. Remember, counterinsurgency operations revolve around intelligence. The more information you give the player, the better you arm the player to make decisions and develop operations - whether that operation is to conduct a patrol to find the enemy, or make their presence known in a village.

Vietnam65 wrote:CA and aid are very much missing at this stage, currently working on an adaption of this model which has a full civilian/infrastructure piece, it stems from the need for the player to be able to effect the Hearts and Minds of a village without having to wait for a combat situation.

Thats good to hear. I might also suggest rolling this all up into a Special Forces unit. Technically Civil Affairs are part of the Special Operations branch. A Special Forces unit in-game could serve as a fighting unit, but also win hearts and minds. Whatever development concept you go for, there needs to be something. Winning hearts and minds with bullets is impossible. Players need a way to influence hearts and minds through money and projects.

I can't wait for this. This game had me sold when they mentioned COIN. I still don't know how it plays (looks like Panzer Corps engine, but I would think it plays very differently), but the fact that someone has actually tried to model COIN is very, very encouraging.

How much of the "provide stuff and services" versus "protect people and keep them safe so they won't join charlie out of necessity for survival" is modeled? I read the part about protecting in the description, but it seems from here there is providing food and medicine?

An insight into providing for villages. When working on the table top rules for Charlie Company infantry combat in Vietnam I read a book about the American units that were sent to give aid to the Vietnamese. In this particular village there had been a unit of Popular Forces (PF's or Ruff Puffs) set up by the South Vietnam government. The PF's had been bullied by the VC to the point where at night they had to retire to what the locals called PF hill as they dare not stay in the village at night. To say the least the locals did not find them very popular. This is what the original US hamlet team (can't recall exactly what they were called and the book is in storage somewhere) found when they arrived. First thing they did was to rebuild the fence around the ville as the VC had decided as a show of force to move through the fence at night. During this work the author noted that the local kids would not even get water for the PFS but loved to run errands for the Americans. the first challenge came up immediately as the VC let it be known they were not happy about this new fence and put out the word that it had better be taken down so the VC could pass through as they wanted. They pulled out the posts and demanded they not be put back in. The Americans solved the problem by putting a grenade under each removed post and letting the locals know that whoever pulled them out would get a face full of grenade. And the next posts it would be the same deal. Score 1 for the US.

Quite a bit later after the village was becoming more secure the team wanted to build the village a school. The villagers wanted it and were willing to help with the construction. First thing was to secure the necessary concrete for the foundation and floor. Now comes an interesting twist. The local South Vietnamese official found out some neighboring official had recently built a fountain in front of his house. The Americans had conveniently provided the necessary materials to build a larger fountain in front of his house, the cement bags. This led to an interesting negotiation that shows how the Asian mind worked. The official thought that the local population would be better served by his increased status by using the concrete to build his fountain. He wanted the whole requisitioned order. The Americans said the village would be better served with a school and it would send a positive message to the other villages that Saigon cared about them. In the end they managed to negotiate a deal where the official got 3/4 of the requisitioned cement for his fountain the rest went to a down sized new school project.

Something that would be hard to model perhaps but the hearts and minds campaign was in a constant struggle with corruption in South Vietnam. Many times I have heard where the VC were carrying sacks with the US food aid logo stamped on them, rice being shipped to Vietnam, loaded into trucks from the ships and right into the local VC camps. No one can say for sure how much the Americans fed the VC but it was a major problem. If you want to bring money into the game you have to deal with the corruption that is going to make it hard to get that money where you want it to go.

Just some thoughts as aid projects are not straight forward get money and load it into village X and Y.

Are you referring to "The Village" by Bing West?

If so, outstanding read.

HI i'm reading posts and was wondering how do i get a copy of the beta? I've signed up but cannot install it. Am i mistaken and the beta isn't released yet. I didn't know where to post a question about this game so i posted it here. Really excited btw about the game!!!

Thanks for the posts, COIN campaigns are difficult to fight and win, let alone try and model

So the departure point for me was that everything that happened in the game had to effect the Hearst and Minds score of the local population, also this being a game (simulation) it also has to be balanced to make for an enjoyable experience. I have been playing this game at least once a day for the last year and a half and have made many small tweaks to the model, but certainly have not reached the end of the journey.

By releasing it I am hoping that debate like this is fueled and the model evolves to a state where we simulate COIN operations more realistically.

kongxinga wrote:How much of the "provide stuff and services" versus "protect people and keep them safe so they won't join charlie out of necessity for survival" is modeled? I read the part about protecting in the description, but it seems from here there is providing food and medicine?

Initially the HM score of the villages was only modified by US destroying VC/NVA units, weighted to VC, but this had the problem of how does US player positively influence a region without waiting for a combat situation. So, the model as it now stands allows the US to increase the HM of villages by regular visitation, symbolizing relationship and confidence building, and basic area domination. Also now by sweeping mines/booby traps the HM increases.

deadtorius wrote:Something that would be hard to model perhaps but the hearts and minds campaign was in a constant struggle with corruption in South Vietnam. Many times I have heard where the VC were carrying sacks with the US food aid logo stamped on them, rice being shipped to Vietnam, loaded into trucks from the ships and right into the local VC camps. No one can say for sure how much the Americans fed the VC but it was a major problem. If you want to bring money into the game you have to deal with the corruption that is going to make it hard to get that money where you want it to go.

Great point and took a lot of time to try figure this one, the original game did have money in it, but as the game evolved it became clear that money was just an element and replaced the whole mechanism with Political Support points (PP), representing the support for the war back home in the USA. So now whenever US units take casualties the PP drops, same as when the NVA establish bases and more reinforcements arrive. This encourages the US player to develop the ARVN army (Vietnamization program) as then the US can supply the hardware, Hueys etc and the fighting is done by the ARVN, saving on US casualties, increasing support, more resources, players wins, I think you can get the cycle. I don't think this aspect has reached maturity yet and I am working on it, the Vietnamization piece, and yes when it matures it will most definitely have corruption in as an element. COIN is complex as it is inextricable from the politics prevailing in the country.

kongxinga wrote: can't wait for this. This game had me sold when they mentioned COIN. I still don't know how it plays (looks like Panzer Corps engine, but I would think it plays very differently),

The game play model is closer to the Civ type style of play then Panzer Corps, turn based but with good animation, for example, when troops are wounded they change animation, when vehicles take a hit they smoke, when vehicles are destroyed they leave wreckage

MikeAP wrote:Are you referring to "The Village" by Bing West?

Downloading it today , thanks

lil_misfit wrote:HI i'm reading posts and was wondering how do i get a copy of the beta? I've signed up but cannot install it. Am i mistaken and the beta isn't released yet.

Beta not released yet , should be in the next couple of days

Once again, thanks for the time taken in respect of the feedback

Thank you for the dev response, and also thank you MikeAp for the detailed account of COIN operations in one particular village. Grenades under posts, ingenious.
I hear mention of passing on combat responsibilities to the South Vietnamese regulars after training and outfitting them. I see that US political will is modeled (nice!), but how about the South Vietnamese will to fight? For that matter, are we modelling (and therefore have the opportunity to break) the Viet Cong and NVA's will to fight, or are they assumed to fight to the death, no matter how many casualties they take?

The reason I ask about the South Vietnamese will to fight is because of that old canard by Chris Crawford (Balance of Power game designer) where he states that insurgents will put more blood on the table (their own but also of their enemies) compared to regular govt forces, mostly because of either ideology, or as I prefer, differing incentives. If the insurgent wins, he becomes the new ruling class of the new order. The best the government trooper can hope for is to collect another month's paycheck and go home in one piece. Therefore in balance of power, if the US funds insurgents with 1 million dollars of equipment, let's say funds the Muhajadeen in Afghanistan, the net effect is greater than if the Soviet Union funds their puppet regime's government troops with the same amount, as some portion is lost to corruption, and there just is no big payday for the government troops. Somehow this reminds me of Iraq army versus ISIS somehow. Not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

I think the South's will to fight should start out shaky, and can be slowly improved via various means (joint operations with US forces to build confidence?) if the player is successful. Nothing breeds success like success after all! That brings us to point two, which is propaganda, or PSYOPS. I am not too sure what sort of Psyops was directed by the communists against the south, but I would believe it would probably be along the lines of "why die for Diem/USA" (die for Diem is catchier, but he has been dead for a while by the time of the game)? The US player hopefully will have opportunities to educate, and therefore bolster the fighting will of the South. Conversely, PSYOPS should be allowed to be used against the VC. Again I am not familiar with what happened in Vietnam, but the British and Malayan governments countered the Malayan Maoist rebels through a massive, non stop, and more importantly tailored propaganda effort against small bands, teams and even individual Maoists hiding in the jungle. Trying to root these out in the jungle is expensive and dangerous, so one way to destroy their will to fight was to air drop individually tailored leaflets urging them to surrender and promising amnesty and food.

It would go something like this "Dear Comrade (Name), Your former comrade (Name 2) has surrendered and been well treated and fed. He has been promoted 2 grades, and is now a Sergeant in the Royal Malayan army. His family is well taken care of. Are you going to throw away your life in the jungle? Think of your wife (Name3)...." Of course, the intel on the locations and details came from surrendering guerillas, but made further PSYOPS efforts much more effective. Intelligence should also come from the VC who switched sides, and alllow an alternative to rooting around the bushes in a bug hunt.

I am also curious on ways we can fix and pin and remove freedom of movement from the VC. I understand the realistic headaches of them crossing borders to rest and refit where you can't follow in would probably be in, but how can I prevent them driving through the villages in a show of force to intimidate people into providing them support? Can I contain them with field engineering-barriers, fortifications and mines? How much can I change the terrain? Terrain improvements were always a big thing in Civ, so I wonder how it will work here.

I like the civ based format, but I saw in the other thread that the player is a lowly LT, so I can't believe he has that many assets to throw around for more than one village! Does he get promoted very fast?

Non-vietnamese minorities as villages-Yes, no?

Are you referring to "The Village" by Bing West?

I think that was it Mike. Great book and gave me a real insight to the other side of the Vietnam War.

Charlie Company was a straight up combat game but I wanted to try and add some of the outside elements to the game in scenario design. I had one decision making game where the Americans are on patrol and when they got to the local "friendly" village they would take enemy fire. Charlie got there first. To actually win its best for the Americans to pull back and report in that the village is now occupied by the enemy. Instead the American commander called in an airstrike and leveled the ville. I go to tell them they just lost the game. Political wargames are much different than straight up shoot to kill games. I may or may not still have the book but it still stays in my mind it was an excellent read.

kongxinga wrote:For that matter, are we modelling (and therefore have the opportunity to break) the Viet Cong and NVA's will to fight, or are they assumed to fight to the death, no matter how many casualties they take?

The NVA/VC will to fight is embedded into the Hearts & Minds (HM) score. The HM score is actually the average of the HM scores for all the individual villages. The number of new insurgency missions created every turn are calculated mostly by the HM score i.e. The higher the HM score the lower the chance for new HM missions and vice versa , so if the VC take a lot of hits , the HM score increases and then less insurgent missions are created , you get the cycle. The opposite cycle being, the U.S. take hits , more insurgents , village HM decreases, NVA enter to support gain, US political support drops etc
These two cycles are at the center of the game, many more events/actions effect the ultimate HM score, but this is the core.

kongxinga wrote:Therefore in balance of power, if the US funds insurgents with 1 million dollars of equipment, let's say funds the Muhajadeen in Afghanistan, the net effect is greater than if the Soviet Union funds their puppet regime's government troops with the same amount, as some portion is lost to corruption, and there just is no big payday for the government troops.

This is very true, the insurgent is way more motivated, both ideologically and future prospects, the gap to govt. troops is exaggerated by the use of conscripts, as they really are not interested! They usually start off ideologically charged by their government but the longer and harder the struggle the faster the breakdown.

Interesting reference to Afghanistan, but more about that later

kongxinga wrote:I think the South's will to fight should start out shaky, and can be slowly improved via various means (joint operations with US forces to build confidence?)

In V65 the ARVN are trained by US green berets at Forward/SF bases. They operate the same way as US infantry but with two important distinctions.

Firstly they have a combat strength considerably lower than US counterparts, representing inferior trainging, cohesion and confidence. All units in the game get promoted after every successful combat , resulting in increasing combat strength.
So with ARVN in the game, the clever player will train ARVN troops, use them to engage VC units, gain rank and only then use them in ops against the NVA

Secondly, the ARVN infantry gather INTEL from villagers way more effectively than the U.S. counterpart. Also to be borne in mind is that when ARVN troops are destroyed there is no impact on the U.S. political support.

kongxinga wrote:That brings us to point two, which is propaganda, or PSYOPS. I am not too sure what sort of Psyops was directed by the communists against the south

Very interesting you raise propaganda, the original game design had US infantry able to distribute propoganda in villages and thereby raise the HM in the village. I took it out as the game had to be balanced, leaving it in just gave the player too many opportunities to increase the HM, balancing this game with the four factions has taken time.
In place of propoganda, in V65 , the HM of villages are marginally increased when infantry visit, representing relationship building.

kongxinga wrote:Can I contain them with field engineering-barriers, fortifications and mines?

There are no fortifications etc in V65, but the U.S. player can lay ambushes which include claymore mines, this is the preferred method to restrict VC movement, especially when the location of the Ho Chi Minh trail is triangulated.

kongxinga wrote:How much can I change the terrain?

Very important component in V65, the engineer unit is used to clear jungle terrain, specifically to build landing zones and roads. Air mobility is a big part of this game and ensuring you have LZ 's to access villages etc is tactically very important.
Building roads and connecting bases etc are equally important, esp if you want to bring mechanized units into play, which is very necessary if the NVA get active or launch an offensive.

kongxinga wrote:I like the civ based format, but I saw in the other thread that the player is a lowly LT, so I can't believe he has that many assets to throw around for more than one village! Does he get promoted very fast?

There is a full uniform module included in V65, you start off as a Lt, as the game(s) develop you win medals, devices and rank and with rank comes privileges , like access to more air strikes

See pic posted in sticky.

Very interesting you raise propaganda, the original game design had US infantry able to distribute propaganda in villages and thereby raise the HM in the village. I took it out as the game had to be balanced, leaving it in just gave the player too many opportunities to increase the HM, balancing this game with the four factions has taken time.
In place of propaganda, in V65 , the HM of villages are marginally increased when infantry visit, representing relationship building.

Relationship building is probably the most accurate method of representing H&M in the game. From what I have read Saigon tried to send in govt reps to help the villagers out but they were mostly young street gang bangers who spent more time trying to get the local young village girls into the sack then actually helping anyone. It seems to follow a typical pattern of what looks good on camera but falls short in actual results. American soldiers being present is a two way street. In some cases they could show up and help out the locals thats a good thing. In other cases as the war progressed American presence caused certain problems. Being seen acting friendly towards the Americans could go against the villager if the VC or one of their sources reported it. Once the Americans leave a ville Charlie can drop by for a visit whenever he wants and punish those who don't act as ordered or desired. As one GI in a book I read stated, we came for a while then left, but the villagers live there and are still there after we are gone. This was the real dilemma of the H&M program. You cans end in food try to increase agriculture try to build needed amenities but you can't be everywhere 24/7.
In one case I recall reading where an American patrol had been in a village for 30 mins, walked out the back of the ville down a trail and within 100 yards hit mines. Now the Americans are pissed that no one told them about the mines and obviously since all the villagers still have their arms and legs they knew not to go down that path but didn't say anything. As the author stated they have to live here we were just visiting, years later he did not blame them but at the time he and his unit wanted revenge which could have led to some real bad PR back home. I dont recall him going into any more details after that.

Very important component in V65, the engineer unit is used to clear jungle terrain, specifically to build landing zones and roads. Air mobility is a big part of this game and ensuring you have LZ 's to access villages etc is tactically very important.
Building roads and connecting bases etc are equally important, esp if you want to bring mechanized units into play, which is very necessary if the NVA get active or launch an offensive.

Interesting not here. As a show of force the American 1st Infantry built their shoulder patch in the Jungle of Vietnam for a fire support base. It was an intentional message to the VC. Also in more remote areas the Americans deployed "Daisy Cutters" which were a single massive bomb that would flatten a huge area, maybe a 100+ yards of whatever terrain it was dropped on. Ready made custom LZ's.

There are no fortifications etc in V65, but the U.S. player can lay ambushes which include claymore mines, this is the preferred method to restrict VC movement, especially when the location of the Ho Chi Minh trail is triangulated.

The fortified hamlet program was a major part of the H&M attempt by Saigon and was where the Popular Forces were normally deployed. villages that were too far out in the outback to get to or too far away to respond to were supposed to become fortified to keep the VC out and cut contact with the locals. Ambushes were common on both sides and trying to find the elusive Ho Chi Minh trail was not easy. As the war progressed it became a jungle super highway with separate side roads to get around areas that were usually bombed by arc light raids, had permanent rest stops, and permanent repair crews who would move out to fill in the damage from US air raids as soon as the planes had cleared the area. Not to mention dedicated AA positions. Part of the attempt to locate the trails was the use of LRRP teams who would be dropped off somewhere and operate surveillance to try and find the trails and hidden bases etc. Also there were "road runners" Americans who could pass themselves off as VC and would move up and down the trails and report on troop movements, supplies etc. A lot of weird stuff was going on there, including the eventual use of sensors to detect the vibrations of numerous feet, and vehicles. Some of these so called trails were regular highways wide enough for trucks to move north and south at the same time in their own lanes, complete with camouflaged fords. The VC were quite inventive.

esp if you want to bring mechanized units into play

Just for pure interest, the Marines brought the first tanks into Vietnam. Although accused of trying to escalate the conflict the Corps responded that when you send in the Marines we take everything with us including our tanks. You told us to go to Vietnam, no one said leave the tanks behind so we took them with us.
Also the Marines ended up in I Corps since their helicopters could operate at the higher elevation of the terrain, the "flying Bananas" that were originally deployed there could not handle the lower atmosphere at the higher altitudes so the Marines moved in to take the place of the ARVN and American units originally there.

One last question about IV corps the Delta region. This was where the "Brown Water Navy" operated. I believe it was quite unique and different there with all the rivers and islands everyone had to deal with. Is there any specific riverine units you will have down there or is it going to be pretty much the same as the rest of the country?

One last thing. From a book I read regarding the will of the North Vietnamese and a favorite bunk house tale among the American troops.
Vinh was a young man from North Vietnam who was recruited into the North Vietnamese Army. He was slight of build had bad eyes and poor feet. During training it was decided he was not fit for a front line soldier so he was assigned to a supply unit that ran up and down the Ho Chih Minh trail delivering supplies. His first day with his new unit he was given 3 mortar rounds and told he was to go south and deliver his rounds to help the great cause. His first night out his unit was bombed by American B-52's and some of his comrades were killed. Although saddened by the loss the next day he and his unit packed up and continued to move south. Most nights the Americans would bomb the trail and his unit. Every morning he would pick up his 3 mortar rounds and head south. One day he came down with pneumonia and had to stay in a rest camp for a few weeks to recover. After he was recovered he joined a different supply unit, picked up his 3 mortar rounds and carried on down south. All the time he went south he was bombed at night, bitten by insects and went hungry some times due to lack of food. Finally weeks later he left the trail and moved into the South. One day he could hear the sounds of mortars firing and he thought at last I am about to complete my duty. He ran up to the first mortar and proudly presented his 3 precious mortar rounds to the commander. He watched as 1,2,3 his rounds were fired off in quick succession. The mortar officer turned to Vinh with a big smile and said "well done, now go back up north and bring us 3 more." (insert laughter here) I thought it was a funny story anyway. It does give you some insight into just how the North was much more committed then the south was.

Great post deadtorius, thanks

It would appear you share the same level of interest in the Vietnam War as I do. Been a passion of mine for a long time, actually visited every major battlefield in Vietnam, was like a pilgrimage

I was asked by a journalist recently in an interview about V'65, and he asked me what did I leave out as there is always compromise. I gave him a list as there is so much that had to be trimmed to make this an enjoyable game and balanced.

Among the items on the list were , inter alia :

1. Mekong delta maps, 'brown water navy'
2. Cross border raids into Cambodia/Loas MACV-SOG style
3. Nation building/ civilian operations
4. Full Vietnamisation program

You get the picture

V65 is hopefully the first of a series, next up would probably be multiplayer , I think it will work very well with two to four players!

Well thanks you for replying to my question. Me and a friend are really excited about the beta!
From what I read the COIN and H&M systems sound really interesting. I also like the idea of PP(political points?) as how you "buy" units for your war in vietnam.
I haven't seen this asked yet but will you be able to play as VC/NVA? I usually don't play as anyone when USA is available but I just thought with the COIN and H&M system playing as VC/NVA would be a challenge.
Thanks for making this game,
lil_misfit

Vietnam65 wrote: 1. Mekong delta maps, 'brown water navy'
2. Cross border raids into Cambodia/Loas MACV-SOG style
3. Nation building/ civilian operations
4. Full Vietnamisation program

What article would that be exactly where they interviewed you?
With the features listed couldn't you put those in as updates or do simmilar to what Battle Academy did and make them as expansions?
lil_misfit

Article not out yet, should be soon, will post it here.

Definitely planning expansions....

Vietnam'66 The Mekong Delta , Vietnam'73 Vietnamisation , the list can be endless

lil_misfit wrote:I haven't seen this asked yet but will you be able to play as VC/NVA?

This release you can only play the US/ARVN , but a multiplayer version is really very well suited to this game and is probably top of my expansion list.

If you are interested, have a look at the review done by Rock, Paper, Shotgun on the prototype last year March

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02 ... inh-trail/

lil_misfit wrote:What article would that be exactly where they interviewed you?

wargamer.com interview

http://wargamer.com/article/3762/interv ... o-chi-minh

Vietnam65 wrote:Great post deadtorius, thanks

<snipped>

V65 is hopefully the first of a series, next up would probably be multiplayer , I think it will work very well with two to four players!

Did I hear multiplayer, possibly up to 4 players for future expansions? This is at shut up and take my money stage already. I wanted to ask whether one could play as Charlie, to better understand the decision making process of the other end of COIN operations, but thought it might be in poor taste. Although one of the best contemporary accounts of a successful insurgency was a few left behind US troops in the Phillipines. One of the key figures name escapes me, but I think he gave himself a rank, and organized a makeshift navy so he would not be bottled in and eliminated, eventually training a sizable US- Filipino force that caused massive headaches for the Japanese all the way until MacArthur returned. So you never know what side of COIN operations you could be facing in advance. My guess is that 4 players would mean US, ARVN, VC and NVA.

There are so many knowledgeable people here, so I will enjoy checking these boards.