Slitherine

Where is the manual? (the one with actual info other than fluff)

What is cover? Does cover work on attacking and defending?

What is LOS?

What is Rate of Fire? Does rate of fire matter attacking tanks? Attacking Walkers?

Do Units Run out of Ammo?

What is Morale?

What is Support? Do support works on attacking and defending?

What is assault? Does Assault work on attacking and defending? Who gets to attack first while assaulting? Two separate initiative checks? How does cover work while assaulting? What is cover?

WHat is Leadership? Does Leadership improve morale? What degrades morale? What is morale?

What is Beta Testing? Did you Beta Test? What is 30 dollars? Did you charge 30 dollars? Do you complain about torrenting? Any relation between torrenting and unfinished games!?!!?!?

Independent games = we defraud like the big companies, and then cry when are year end numbers come in (which is why this game was released unfinished, to gin the accounting). Unbelievable! (no, sadly all too believable!)

as i take this post is sarcasm only, i reply with the same, if it isn't and wasn't meant as that then i am wrong and apologizes

but as your last statement seems a reply or quote, i think you are a steam user with a axe to grind, but admin and IP will show that so they may respond in kind to you themselves, as it's not my job either...

Unfolder wrote:Where is the manual? (the one with actual info other than fluff) pdf go Goolge it if you have no idea what pdf is

What is cover? Does cover work on attacking and defending? both

What is LOS? = line of sight

What is Rate of Fire? Does rate of fire matter attacking tanks? Attacking Walkers? yes

Do Units Run out of Ammo?

What is Morale? same answer as Google above

What is Support? Do support works on attacking and defending? same answer as Google above

What is assault? Does Assault work on attacking and defending? Who gets to attack first while assaulting? Two separate initiative checks? How does cover work while assaulting? What is cover? you have no idea what morale or support is but know assault, oh yes that's seems like it needs a answer

WHat is Leadership? Does Leadership improve morale? What degrades morale? What is morale? same answer as Google above

What is Beta Testing? Did you Beta Test? What is 30 dollars? Did you charge 30 dollars? Do you complain about torrenting? Any relation between torrenting and unfinished games!?!!?!? beta tester are normal user like myself who test game before release, $ is currency. we don't talk about pirates or stuff regarding them, and game is finished so no reply to that tbh

Independent games = we defraud like the big companies, and then cry when are year end numbers come in (which is why this game was released unfinished, to gin the accounting). Unbelievable! (no, sadly all too believable!)

no comment as you seem like you don't want a forum chat just a moan so better off elsewhere unless you never wanted any info or replies

welcome to the forum but sorry others will have to reply the rest as you don't need my help as your too negative, so maybe just needed to let off steam

zak, I know you're the resident apologist, but even you cannot deny most of the questions asked - even if dripping with sarcasm - are actually very valid.

The pdf manual he was asking for does not exist, as the one you can get is rubbish. And a majority of subsequently asked questions are things that should be in the manual, but are not.
Sure, you can dismiss them all - people can figure out some of it on their own, and even more when they ask around here on the forum, but ... say if you get one of the notoriously hard to assemble Ikea furniture pieces, what would you think if Ikea actually openly stated that you're expected to ask around on the Ikea forum on how to properly put the pieces together?

The point about the game being unfinished is perfectly valid, imo. It's very much playable ... mostly so from start to finish, though things start to fall apart and become a bit of a rollercoaster ride in act 2.
But it's documentation is woefully inadequate, both in the game and outside the game, there's some balancing issues etc. It's easier if you know Panzer Corps and/or Warhammer 40k, but neither of these two things is listed under "System Requirements"...

Personally, I'm apalled by some of the things as they're currently implemented, but fine with most and even downright happy with some. I paid fully price and am not sour on it, but I totally understand how people with a different set of opinions might be.
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rezaf

I have been into 40K for as long as its existed. My army of choice is the Imperial Guard. My best friends is Space Marines. Playing this game FOR ME is quite easy. I know all the units, weapons, and how best to use them with very little adjustment to this games mechanics vs the tabletop version. It seems that this game ASSUMES this to some degree. It shouldnt. It should have at least a decent manual that explains, weapons( like what a grot bomb really is, or a sqiggoth), UNIT ABILITIES and what they do. And a bit more on the effects/ bonuses of the varied types of terrain. Lots of us with some wargamming exp, can guess at most of this, but a new wargaming player thats left up to guessing will get frustrated quickly, quit and youve lost a customer. I LOVE the immense diversity of units to customize your force the way you want. I think with some tweaking to the force structures or maybe an option to place restrictions to force structure, and continued unit balacing THIS will be my preferred way to play 40k. Its been out for 6 days. Lets keep open minds, submit GOOD FEEDBACK, and keep the ideas coming. So far, mostly good. Could be better, but keep at it.

manual is version 1, and will be updated, was pre game release and so like everything it evolves and changes, the games out now so will alter and change over time with suggestions etc, sorry the manual not perfect on day 1 as it maybe should have been, but is anything now days?

name another pdf on day one of any game release that is fully correct?

or to put it another way, or week one after release is even valid any more if games been updated?

all valid points will be answered by the developer and all opinions are equal, mine are no better than his, or your's for that matter, and all are treated the same...
the game will progress, the manual will be filled out and most if not all things will get a better reply....

have finished the game 4 times, with 2 sets of different units, so maybe i'm just biased, so agree.... everyone is entitled to there opinions even if it's wrong or against mine

BlackLion wrote:I have been into 40K for as long as its existed. My army of choice is the Imperial Guard. My best friends is Space Marines. Playing this game FOR ME is quite easy. I know all the units, weapons, and how best to use them with very little adjustment to this games mechanics vs the tabletop version. It seems that this game ASSUMES this to some degree. It shouldnt. It should have at least a decent manual that explains, weapons( like what a grot bomb really is, or a sqiggoth), UNIT ABILITIES and what they do. And a bit more on the effects/ bonuses of the varied types of terrain. Lots of us with some wargamming exp, can guess at most of this, but a new wargaming player thats left up to guessing will get frustrated quickly, quit and youve lost a customer. I LOVE the immense diversity of units to customize your force the way you want. I think with some tweaking to the force structures or maybe an option to place restrictions to force structure, and continued unit balacing THIS will be my preferred way to play 40k. Its been out for 6 days. Lets keep open minds, submit GOOD FEEDBACK, and keep the ideas coming. So far, mostly good. Could be better, but keep at it.

thanks for the vote of confidence, and agree it can be a tad overwhelming for newer players, so i guess i'm wrong again as i forget not everyone comes from here and has played most games in the collection

i have reported the post so admin or forum mods can answer it better, as my reply is maybe wrong, but i agree and stand by what i put / wrote

building a community and forum section for this game is like sharing idea's or ways to make it better still, as all games here develop over time and with good community feedback, there's always those with negative views and different views but as a community we should embrace and work with them to include any idea's they may have to improve what we are all here talking about, but re reading what the thread starter wrote, i still feel this is an axe to grind and a second cheap shot at someone as it was posted and then user left right away so no debate, he has had his or her say and didn't stick around for a reply so maybe was never required either so maybe i just jumped the gun...

zakblood_slith wrote:name another pdf on day one of any game release that is fully correct?

The point being discussed is not whether or not the manual is correct, it's that it contains barely any info whatsoever, whether correct or not. To stick with the Ikea example, the manual states: Included you find several boards. Put together, these will make a shelf. Shelves are for putting stuff on them. Btw., also included you'll find some screws and stuff you might find useful during assembly. Have fun.

zakblood_slith wrote:manual is version 1, and will be updated, was pre game release and so like everything it evolves and changes, the games out now so will alter and change over time with suggestions etc, sorry the manual not perfect on day 1 as it maybe should have been, but is anything now days?

This is not a valid excuse. When you were in school and had to submit a paper, did you also argue in this manner with your teacher or professor?

zakblood_slith wrote:all valid points will be answered by the developer and all opinions are equal, mine are no better than his, or your's for that matter, and all are treated the same...

Agreed, except this is not really about opinions. It's just a FACT that you cannot find this stuff explained anywhere, neither in the game nor in the manual. Which is the whole point of this thread as far as I understand.
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rezaf

We know some people are struggling with the mechanics and we;re working to make things more transparent. Based on the feedback we've seen so far we have plans to add a variety of improvements to help players learn the mechanics. It is a complicated game and we realize now people are going to need a lot more help to fully grasp the mechanics.

Zak I know you're trying to help but please do not make users with issues feel like they're unable to post feedback for risk of being attacked. Please be polite to anyone with a question or concern.

ok message understood, i didn't feel he had issues tbh, but fair comment boss

Posts: 1
Joined: 02 Dec 2014 07:37

and left forum right after post, before anyone replied...

but for me i'll leave the negative posts for others now, as i agree with you and replied in haste

zakblood_slith wrote:Posts: 1
Joined: 02 Dec 2014 07:37

Chances are that you were correct in that regard at the very least: He just needed to let off some steam.
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rezaf

Some people do come and post very negative comments but often because they are frustrated and we just have to make sure we listen to what they have to say, check if they have a point and help them to enjoy the game.

I think this user has some valid points and possibly was really looking forwards to the game but disappointed they couldn't get to grips with it. We should have done a better job with the day 1 version, making it clearer, but we are where we are and we'll do what we can to make it clearer. As I remember it, you were not overly impressed when you first played the beta Zak. It takes a bit of time to get to grips with the game and then it really sucks you in We need to work on that initial experience and make sure players don't give up before they start understanding and enjoying.

We've got a lot of ideas on how to do that and you'll start to see some changes this week if all goes to plan!

IainMcNeil wrote:We've got a lot of ideas on how to do that and you'll start to see some changes this week if all goes to plan!

Does it involve fixing the editor?

i can remember my first thoughts on the beta as well, and was very negative, but the game atm shares no similarity to that version and has come on a long way, yes it still needs to go somewhat as well and tbh do agree with many posts on here, but as Rome wasn't built in a day, others needs to understand the gaming process, same as i learnt it...

i enjoy testing more than i enjoy playing games, not just this one but tbh most if not all games i have tested, and there's been a few to date.

base game and idea is good, and even in it's present form plays well, or i think it does anyway....

manual is well rubbish and skips out or misses out far too much and does explain enough of the basic so do agree with most on that point.

editor lacks a manual of it's own, as yes it does need one.

other points are really being worked on so no need to re post them here again

IainMcNeil wrote:Some people do come and post very negative comments but often because they are frustrated and we just have to make sure we listen to what they have to say, check if they have a point and help them to enjoy the game.

I think this user has some valid points and possibly was really looking forwards to the game but disappointed they couldn't get to grips with it. We should have done a better job with the day 1 version, making it clearer, but we are where we are and we'll do what we can to make it clearer. As I remember it, you were not overly impressed when you first played the beta Zak. It takes a bit of time to get to grips with the game and then it really sucks you in We need to work on that initial experience and make sure players don't give up before they start understanding and enjoying.

We've got a lot of ideas on how to do that and you'll start to see some changes this week if all goes to plan!

Thanks Ian!

Youve got a great start, and the sky is the limit with this game. With just 3 of the races, you have TONS of options. The surface insnt even sratched yet. Different Guard regiments, lots of Space Marine chapters, and several major orc factions. Then there is the prospect of more races. Its going to be exciting watching how the game evolves with each new addition. Imagine where we will be in 12 months. As a new player to this engine I see it as an opportunity to offer a fresh perspective on giving feedback, and not compare it to PzC.


To all the super eager fans out there, lets just be a tad patient.

good comments BlackLion, well put and glad you liked it, if you every fancy multi player you no where we all are

The way I see it as a long time PzC player is that the game went to steam too early. People on those forums are used to (but don't like it) the fact that the games are launched with poor documentation and many of the mechanics are hidden and not explained. In time the mechanics, balance and unit stats are tweaked or fixed. The underlying mechanics are explained on the forums in detail.
Now Armageddon was released to Steam from day one and people there mostly expect a finished product, especially if its released as one and not under some early access program.
Add to this the fact you are using a well known franchise that is bound to get you a crowd of players that are interested in WH40k (because of playing the TT or Dawn of War) and not in hex based strategy games and you have a problem on your hands.

Now all you can do is try to keep those people calm and prepare patches and balancing tweaks ASAP.

I like the game as it is right now, because it is fun to play but am waiting for the fixes and add-ons to come with anticipation. But remember that I knew what to expect when making the purchase.

also another good point and well said and made

This is actually a very good thread. It is an eye opener for many folks. Iain, I really appreciate the fact that you guys seem to really understand the issues many of us are having with this game.

I agree 100% with everything Unfolder said and asked, except for the little rant at the end. Not one of the things he asked about are explained, the manual is lacking at best, and it seems that the developers understand this now.

I enjoy the game, and do not regret buying it one bit. But, I am eagerly waiting to see it get into better shape, with better explanations and game balancing. Other threads are talking about how easy the game gets, with too much requisition that you can buy just the biggest and best units. Other threads talk about how infantry becomes useless rather quickly.

Lots of things to work on and balance, and I can't wait to see all this implemented and released to us groggies!

Onwards!

infantry that are used right can be in most battle a winner or loser if used correctly, i have finished the game 4 times, 2 times with mostly all tanks, most fun and also the easiest, then went wit ha mixed setup once all through, then went all infantry with the odd support unit and kept upgrading them until the real good troops came out, my gold units

close in assault troop, there is no equal in close up fire power or for defence in some terrain

Thanks zak. That is part of the problem as I understand it. If you played the campaign with all mostly all tanks, then that probably means there is too much requisition. It should be a difficult decision as to what units you buy, and you should never have enough requisition as you want to get all the big units. That is how Panzer Corps is, and it makes for some tough campaign decisions.

I know this is not Panzer Corps, but is basically the same campaign structure. It just sounds like the campaign needs to be balanced so requisition is a precious commodity.