Slitherine

Well I had my first game last night with a friend. We used the ancient starter armies and played for almost 3 hours, getting nowhere near a conclusion. We skirmished and had a few close combats, our main lines did not even contact. We did spend a LOT of time in the book searching what to do next or what something meant, then we had to call it a night. But we did that on purpose to find out in each new situation what we could do and couldn't. This will definitely speed up in future games.

There were 3 situations which arose that gave us problems and just to give the writers some feedback I will cover them even though they have been discussed in other threads already.

1 Impact POA Mounted with light spear – if no other net POAs. We had no idea what this meant so we just gave them a +. For someone new this would have been a good candidate for further explanation. If we did not have this forum we would have just kept giving a + and gave up trying to understand the real meaning.

2 Determining dice for Impact or Melee. Can I ask for a reasoning behind not allowing a -1 die for being disrupted and say being a 2 stand BG? You will never suffer the effects of being disrupted and that makes little sense to me.

3 The elephants lost a melee really bad and dropped 2 cohesion levels and routed. We searched but there were no elephant rules for routing. So we just moved them backwards through the lane they were in. I must admit this left us more than a little flat. We were hoping for a random rout direction at least but they were very controlled and orderly. I saw in another thread that no elephant rules were going to be added. I would have thought this to be an important elephant rule. If the designers still plan no elephant rules in the FAQ we will more than likely add our own as we have no interest in tournament play. Something like roll for direction and the elephants rout off in that direction until they leave the board, are rallied or hit something friend or foe.

But overall we enjoyed the game. The writing style I must be honest and say it was tough in places to understand what was allowed and what was not. This could be a barrier for new players who may not want to do a steep learning curve.

And please take all the comments above as positive. We’re planning another playtest next Saturday with more players and look forward to it as well as more reads through the rules and hearing other’s issues and solutions on here.

Brian

1 Impact POA Mounted with light spear – if no other net POAs. We had no idea what this meant so we just gave them a +. For someone new this would have been a good candidate for further explanation. If we did not have this forum we would have just kept giving a + and gave up trying to understand the real meaning.

Work out any other POAs. If anyone has a POA advantage then the Mounted LtSpr doesn't kick in. If no-one has a POA then the Lt Spr applies and you get a POA.

2 Determining dice for Impact or Melee. Can I ask for a reasoning behind not allowing a -1 die for being disrupted and say being a 2 stand BG? You will never suffer the effects of being disrupted and that makes little sense to me.

I can't speak for the author's reasoning, but there are other disadvantages with small BGs (eg. auto-break with one loss, nearly always -ves on cohesion tests). Being disrupted is still a problem, if only because it is one step closer to being fragmented.

3 The elephants lost a melee really bad and dropped 2 cohesion levels and routed. We searched but there were no elephant rules for routing. So we just moved them backwards through the lane they were in. I must admit this left us more than a little flat. We were hoping for a random rout direction at least but they were very controlled and orderly. I saw in another thread that no elephant rules were going to be added. I would have thought this to be an important elephant rule. If the designers still plan no elephant rules in the FAQ we will more than likely add our own as we have no interest in tournament play. Something like roll for direction and the elephants rout off in that direction until they leave the board, are rallied or hit something friend or foe.

There are no special rules for elephants breaking.

Paul[/quote]

BrianC wrote:We used the ancient starter armies and played for almost 3 hours, getting nowhere near a conclusion. We skirmished and had a few close combats, our main lines did not even contact. We did spend a LOT of time in the book searching what to do next or what something meant, then we had to call it a night.

An alternative, if you can't find a ruling, is just to either agree a likely outcome/move and if controversial, roll a dice. Make a note of the incident (ideally photograph the situation with a digital camera), and then go back after the game and review the decision. It keeps the game flowing and gets you into combat.

BrianC wrote:1 Impact POA Mounted with light spear – if no other net POAs. We had no idea what this meant so we just gave them a +. .

Work out all other POAs (not counting the light spear factor at this point). If the net factors are even, then the mounted light spear get a +POA. Think of it as a tie-breaker which is ONLY applicable if there is a tie. For example, Bw Cav vs light spear Cav. The net factor is evens (no net POA). In this case the light spear Cav get to add their + for light spear, to give a new +POA to the light spear cav. The light spear cav have the advantage over bow cav.

A second example. Lancer Cv vs light spear Cv in the open. The lancers get a + for lance. In which case the lancers are on +POA, the light spear Cv are on -POA. Since the score isn't evens, the light spear doesn't count. The lancers have the advantage.

BrianC wrote:2 Determining dice for Impact or Melee. Can I ask for a reasoning behind not allowing a -1 die for being disrupted and say being a 2 stand BG? You will never suffer the effects of being disrupted and that makes little sense to me.

Yes, true. Once you get down to 2 combat dice you don't lose a further combat dice for being disrupted/disordered. However, you DO get a -1 if you have to take a cohesion test, so there is a degree of penalty. However, 2 stands would have 4 dice at impact if both bases were fighting, so they would lost a dice at impact.

BrianC wrote:3 The elephants ... routed. We searched but there were no elephant rules for routing. So we just moved them backwards through the lane they were in. I must admit this left us more than a little flat. We were hoping for a random rout direction... ...we will more than likely add our own as we have no interest in tournament play.

Correct, there is no random move for routing elephants. I think it's so that the rules aren't over-complicated further. If you play locally I don't see an issue with a house rule.

If you want a random elephant rout movement, then why don't you use a GW scatter dice? I do like the rules as they stand though.

Yes a house rule for Elephants might be fun. We didn't feel that it merited generally covering. As somebody said we have erred towards not complciating things when options exist. They do create mayhem if anything is behind.

At 2 bases there is little effect from DISR but in the main by then a BG is down to 50% strength anyway. -1 dice is a 50% penalty and a little too dramatic and reserved for FRG. So on balance it was better left as it is in game balance overall.

The POA for Lt Sp is quite carefully done so that it cuts in when there is no major advantage elsewhere. This gives the result of it counting in situations where it would be rather handy.
eg. vs MF spearmen in the open
vs lance armed cavalry not in open terrain

It gives the right overall pattern. We do of course have the forum and the FAQ as well. We didn't want to clog the document to much.

As you say Brian, even though it is more smoothly written than other rules perhaps, it can still be quite daunting atr the start.

Usually the first game of anything is very slow and it speeds up rapidly. Hope you enjoy your next games.

Cheers

Si

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the responses and info, its all well taken. I'll take the suggestions above and make a mutual ruling in a game then perhaps search the forum then post as needed as it may help other newbies. I just found my digital camera so can and will take pics next time, we just moved and are still unpacking.

I still want to do some more research on elephants before I go tinkering. I would prefer not to tinker as it can lead to unforseen results. I am sure the elephant issue has arisen in beta testing and it was addressed and the result is historically accurate for the scale and results.

Regarding the disruption I was thinking more stands that start at 2 like the Triarii. But I guess the only effect is as Neil listed.

Some things just seem strange at first go through and I am sure will seem second nature. Its just going to take a half dozen games or so : ), not that I mind because I love the system so far. I even ordered a new batch of 15mm Romans which I am prepping for painting this week, so its all good.

Thanks again for the experienced perspective and patience : ).

Brian

For a BG of Triarii being disrupted while it doesn't cost a dies does mean you are no longer steady spear so if fighting swordsmen your opponents will get a POA.

The -1 on cohesion tests is not to be knocked either, a BG of two bases that is disrupted and has to test for losing a combat will always test at -2 (-1 for being disrupted and another -1 for 1 HP3B) so need a 9 to pass the test if there are no generals about.

On elephants it is worth remembering that whilst individual elephants may run off in random directions a BG represents a whole load more than 1 elephant. So a mechanims that might be suitable for a game where 1 model is 1 elephant it will not be for a game where 1 model is a number of elephants.

Mind you I'm more than a little convinced that the random direction routing elephant is more "wargaming wisdom" than reality.

Thanks for that Hammy. I am starting to get the idea of how different aspects are all tied together rather than just looking for disruption as it pertains to combat. Combat also includes things link cohesion and POAs. Its just when you are used to a few other systems, not many your view could be skewed.

And Nik, point well taken. Any idea how many elephants are in one stand? I'm ok with the rule now but just curious. Once again it was my past experience with ancient games that told me something was missing. But I took a pill and am all better now : )

Thanks

BRian