Slitherine

I plan to play a game very shortly and if Storm of Arrows does not arrive I am guessing on my Swiss stats Tell me if I am wrong

Pike: Elite/Protected/Drilled/Impact
Halbard: Elite/Armored/Drilled/Impact
Crossbow-Handguns: Average?/Unarmored?/Undrilled?
Mouted missle troop: Same as above?
Lorrainers: Average (I read they were not all that thrilled)Hvy Armor/Undrilled/Lance and impact.

Let me know how off base I am. I figure the pike/halbards would be scary rating because well, they were. Also in Storm of Arrows does it have better hand guns? Since by 1500 the gun was getting to be a effective weapon.

Irondog

pikes and halberds are probably superior. There are very few elites in the lists.

True,
But in the peroid the Swiss fought they were physco beyond the norm. And they would have to rate better than Landsknecht.

So if you rate the Swiss as superior that would put the Landsknect as average putting everyone as as poor. Well that won't fly.
So I think Swiss Elite (Kind of fought that way) Landsknect superior and the bulk of the other pike armed army troops either Average or superior. And the Milta poor. If you make the Swiss just superior Charles the Bold would have had a easier time.

Irondog

Sorry but no Elites! And if you're feel aggrieved then see the Spartan thread (which I truly regret having raised).

Rich is right re the Superior pike and halberdiers. Xbow/HG = drilled and unprotected LF.

Steve

Landesknechts are slightly out of period I think, and arguably were not materially worse than the swiss they faced - when they actually fought.

Superior Swiss are significantly better than anything else they might face, most pikes are average - and some of the less efficient ones (early Low Countries, some germans) are classified as spearmen, some are poor. You would not want to see Elite Swiss....no-one would!!

The Swiss pikes and halberds are superior, the rest of the army is average, except the enfant perdus who are poor.

I agree with Tim that superior seems about right - they weren't better that the knights they faced in terms of morale - what was different was their tactical doctrine was pretty much "in your face" which sometimes worked and sometimes got them into trouble.

Few infantry in the late medieval period are superior - most is either average or poor. So the Swiss do stand out.

I think people are too quick to jump on the Elite classification for their troops. For an army to have Elites, first it needs to be an army where being superior is the norm. Elite would then be the best amongst these which are already some of the best troops in the world at the time!

To give you a totally unbiased example, if the Portuguese football team are all superior (well most of them), then Ronaldo would be elite. But only Ronaldo would be elite...

carlos wrote:I think people are too quick to jump on the Elite classification for their troops. For an army to have Elites, first it needs to be an army where being superior is the norm. Elite would then be the best amongst these which are already some of the best troops in the world at the time!

To give you a totally unbiased example, if the Portuguese football team are all superior (well most of them), then Ronaldo would be elite. But only Ronaldo would be elite...

I think you mean effete, not elite

And of course Jose would be an IC!

Steve

You are both incorrect and correct, respectively

carlos wrote: To give you a totally unbiased example, if the Portuguese football team are all superior (well most of them), then Ronaldo would be elite. But only Ronaldo would be elite...

Elite Toops (Definition) - Troops that look very showy and run around alot, at the first hint of physical contact they will throw themselves to the ground and roll around in apparent agony, crying for their mum.

Well, by that definition Ronaldo is indeed elite. Not sure if Ceasar's best would be that impressed though...........

You don't become the best player in the Premier League by rolling around on the floor and not being physical.

carlos wrote:
You don't become the best player in the Premier League by rolling around on the floor and not being physical.

It's an ENT disease imported from Europe in the 1970's. There are a lot of players in the EPL suffering from this "inner ear imbalance" syndrome, which gets worse when they cross the line forming the 18 yard area. Some suffer from a far worse 2nd stage of the disease- "Hit by a feather, shot from the grassy knoll reaction" as per Rivaldo


Spike

well if everyone else is scum I can swallow SWiss being superior. But if the Landskenct show up they have to be better in something because well, they were. And the Landskenect would show up by 1500.

By the way let me know when you guys talk about a sport that lets you use all your god given limbs like oh, Rugby.

Irondog

Shrovetide Football has been played in Derbyshire since the 12th Century, the first rule is not to murder. But this year’s game has been rocked with the allegations of a replica ball being used.

The Up’ards 2-0 win could be overturned.

Makes the US sport's scandals look tame in comparison.


Now THAT is a real sport !

carlos wrote:I think people are too quick to jump on the Elite classification for their troops.

Same idea as every napoleonic gamer who painted up the french old guard first.

Before you guys goup me with the guys who paint nothing but Old Guard, 95th Rifles and the like let me tell you something about how my armies run.
I have painted not 1 but 3 Italian armies for WW2 (only 1 unit of Folgore for my RSI army, oh make that 4 Italain armies). If that was not enough punishment I did a 1 Italain army for WW1 and have the figures for a second (EW and LW). So I know a little about pushing around sucky troops.

I was just wondering how the Swiss (better) would rate next to the Landsknect (not as good). They were around in a early Italian wars army. Still in the 1500 time line.

Irondog

irondog068 wrote:I was just wondering how the Swiss (better) would rate next to the Landsknect (not as good). They were around in a early Italian wars army. Still in the 1500 time line.

Swiss pikes = Superior
Landsknechts (pre 1500) = Average
French pikes = Poor

We have not considered the later performance of Landsknechts as the rules only cover up to 1500.

Greetings

rbodleyscott wrote:

irondog068 wrote:I was just wondering how the Swiss (better) would rate next to the Landsknect (not as good). They were around in a early Italian wars army. Still in the 1500 time line.

Swiss pikes = Superior
Landsknechts (pre 1500) = Average
French pikes = Poor

We have not considered the later performance of Landsknechts as the rules only cover up to 1500.

I would think that for the early years of the Italian Wars this is still pretty consistent. I'm not sure how one would rate Spanish foot but they needed defences to hold in a number of cases so I assume were probably Average at best.

Regards

Okay I guess that makes scense. I was suprised in Storm Arrows on a couple of things
1) I think the Swiss should still be elite but with everyone else average at best it seems okay. Have not played yet and seen what a heavy cavalry charge with gerdames will do to a pike block.

2) Swiss are rated as armored. I would think protected. Most accounts I read said they were not that well armored.

Still both Rise of Rome and Storm of Arrows look really good. I may even do a Brugdian or Holy Roman army to fight my Swiss.

Irondog

Irondog you will find that all swiss HI are protected and not Armoured.

Andy.