Slitherine

FoG 2.0;A BG of Impact Medium Foot in the open doesn't want to charge an enemy foot BG (pikemen).The pikemen BG has a BG of friendly Knights beside it. The Knights can't intercept the M.Foot if they decided to charge, so the M.Foot have to pass a test not to charge in order not to land on the enemy pikes.
Unfotunately to the M.Foot the CMT not to charge is lost.
Now the M.Foot is obliged to charge the pikemen BUT is it also obliged to charge the Knights too? The Knights are in charge range of the M.Foot BG if it wheeled.The relevant rules are in page 63 and 64 of the rule book.
I ask you because of the rule in page 64 that says;<<Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.>> I know that the M.Foot aren't obliged to declare a charge that would contact mounted, but since since those mounted weren't in a position to intercept the charge of the M.Foot against the pikes and the M.Foot now lost the not to charge test, don't they have to contact all the potential targets even the most undesired ones? Thanks-Harry

The medium foot is not obliged to test if its move could contact mounted. Therefore, since there are mounted that could be potentially contacted, it does not test.

Gozerius is spot on - P63 - 4th bullet.

But I guess the MF died badly anyway???
Cheers
Rob

But the M.Foot would contact the mounted ONLY by making a wheel by their own will . Straight in front of them were only the pikes, and the Knights were beside the pikes, 1MU away from them (e.g not in edge to edge contact with them) and looking at the same direction, so if the M.Foot charged straight ahead they would never contact mtd or be intercepted by them. So, you believe the M.Foot weren't obliged to charge or test not to charge?

HarryKonst wrote:But the M.Foot would contact the mounted ONLY by making a wheel by their own will . Straight in front of them were only the pikes, and the Knights were beside the pikes, 1MU away from them (e.g not in edge to edge contact with them) and looking at the same direction, so if the M.Foot charged straight ahead they would never contact mtd or be intercepted by them. So, you believe the M.Foot weren't obliged to charge or test not to charge?

Descriptions are never ideal in these kinds of situations.

If the MF could have contacted the mounted in any way (remembering that partial contact is considered 'full contact' for purposes of impact) then it count.

Yes, as I wrote, the M.Foot had a number of choices. In some of them they could make a wheel and contact both the enemy pikes and the Knights. Or they could do other wheels or go straight forward and not contact the Knights or be intercepted by them. So, the rule in page 63 counts anyway and they are not obliged to test not to charge? That really surprises me. So, by following this interpretation, if the Knights were looking at the other way and had their rear to the M.Foot, or if they were a Broken BG that happened to be there that round, still prevent the Impact foot of the obligation to charge the pikes. Am I correct?
By the way,(Rob) the M.Foot charged (after loosing the not to charge test as we played it) only the pikes (and we decided to ask the forum for clarification about the rest).The pikes were Superior Swiss, they won the Impact and the close combat, so the M.Foot ended fragmented at the end of the round. They broke in the next round.

That really surprises me. So, by following this interpretation, if the Knights were looking at the other way and had their rear to the M.Foot, or if they were a Broken BG that happened to be there that round, still prevent the Impact foot of the obligation to charge the pikes. Am I correct?

Yes

Thank you all for the answers

Sorry guys but I think that is totally wrong.
If the knights were alongside the pike then there would be no reason to test as corner to corner counts as contacting mounted.
But there is a gap so if they fail the test they charge straight ahead and hit only the pike, there is no obligation to wheel to also hit the knights.

The whole argument was whether the M.Foot are obliged to charge the Pikes or not, because there was at least one direction of charging (by wheeling) that could make them also contact the Knights if they had chosen it.. Yes, there was a gap between Knights and Pikes. As I understand the clarification given by the guys, if there is a possible way (direction) that leads exept to the pikes also to the knights, then the rule <<...could contact mounted >> applies, and the shock foot don't have to charge anyway. Till today I thought that if there was a possible direction of legal charge that would not contact or be intercepted by mtd, then the shock foot have to charge or take a not to charge test.
On the other hand, if we accept that a CMT test has to be taken (just for clarifying the rules), when this is lost, then the shock foot still have to contact all their legal targets, e.g Pikes and Knights in our situation. The Knights are not exepted of the charge, I think. The shock foot charge only to the ones most straight ahead only if there is no legal way of contacting all their opponents.See page 64.

But there is a gap so if they fail the test they charge straight ahead and hit only the pike, there is no obligation to wheel to also hit the knights.

Failing a test not to charge simply means you have to charge. The owning player does not have to charge straight forward, but retains all options as if they had elected to charge in the first place.

Alan, if a BG charges voluntarily it can wheel to charge any target it chooses as long as it would not lead to fewer die being thrown p57. If it fails a test it must charge the one nearest to straight ahead, so sometimes cannot wheel in the same way.

Sorry guys but I think that is totally wrong.

Fair enough you are at liberty to interpret it as you will - but Harry's original post says that the MF could hit the Knights if it wheeled?

And the rules say that if a charge could hit mounted then you don't have to test.

A diagram or picture would help us but from what has been described I don't think it could be any clearer.

Pete is right. The rule says "could contact mounted ".The Knights could be contacted if the MF wheeled, so the rule applies. I'm not interested in judging the rule. I just want to know how the rule is played on tabletop. So, I think we came to a conclusion.

Think of this more broadly on a battlefield. If you are near enough to become engaged quickly with mounted your ardor cools a bit.

It is a question of do you want a strict technical or a broader feel. In this case most believe that the authors intended the later.

The other consequence of the former increases the ability to draw out foot when they reasonably would not want to engage mounted unless ordered by someone to do so.

That's true. I understand the logic behind the rule, and it is a good rule for the game. Maybe it would be better if the rule said ;"... could contact the front edge of unbroken mounted." instead of contact mtd. in general.

HarryKonst wrote:That's true. I understand the logic behind the rule, and it is a good rule for the game. Maybe it would be better if the rule said ;"... could contact the front edge of unbroken mounted." instead of contact mtd. in general.

No, I don't think so. You can still make the choice to charge, you just don't have to test to not charge.

You are in the middle ages and you are an honoured fierce foot soldier ravenflight, dressed for battle, in the middle of a battlefield. Your adrenaline has reached the top and you are watching your mounted hateful enemy who is there to destroy you, loosing his morale, starting to break, giving backs, loosing cohesion. You want to attack them and eat their bones. But your commander for reasons you may not understand decides not to charge . Do you believe it would be easier or more difficult to make you obey the order? If it's more difficult then a test not to charge has to be taken on tabletop.

HarryKonst wrote:You are in the middle ages and you are an honoured fierce foot soldier ravenflight, dressed for battle, in the middle of a battlefield. Your adrenaline has reached the top and you are watching your mounted hateful enemy who is there to destroy you, loosing his morale, starting to break, giving backs, loosing cohesion. You want to attack them and eat their bones. But your commander for reasons you may not understand decides not to charge . Do you believe it would be easier or more difficult to make you obey the order? If it's more difficult then a test not to charge has to be taken on tabletop.

I was saying in the rules that you still have the choice, so you can charge if you want to. If your 'psyche' says that you should have to test to not charge, then order the charge. It's that simple. It's more complex to do the DBMMMMM "if on Tuesdays except when it's raining or on days with a full moon within 4 days and where the moons of saturn are in Aquarius..." type rule writing.