Slitherine

All,

Maybe you all can help me understand teh army list build for 3KK before 400AD. The (*) applies..... minima marked * do not apply and all mounted troops maxima are halved.....

I got the 4*'s are really 0s for dates before 400AD ........

What I'm wondering is the wording on pg 37 appear to apply to all mounted troops not just the ones tied to an (*).

Should modify bases per battle group .... maxima of 6 goes to 3
Should modify total bases for mounted troop type, and
Total mounted bases overall .......

For an army date of 350AD Koguryo
---- Leading with Guard Cav - Koguryo from 300 - Cataphracts - 3 Bases per BG, 0- 6 Total Bases of CT within a Total Mounted bases of 0 - 18

As a matter of fact does it not change all mounted BGs to a maxima of 3
What I am really wantingn to focus on is the allied structure.... for Japan....
Don't the mounted BGs go to 2 bases each.... and fit within the structure

bases per BG Total Bases

2 0-2 0-6

I think so ....

Dan

The maxima are halved for total bases of each affected troop type, not per BG. BG size remains 4-6, unless the army maximum for that troop type is less than 6, then only 4. BGs can never have only 2 bases unless specifically permitted.

Gozerius

I do appreciate your comments. Thank you for getting back to me so soon. I am however still somewhat confused. If in the main army list total bases maxima for a troop type as well as total mounted base maximum are reduced by half the reduced values and it works ..... why then does that not also apply for the 3KK Ally If it did then you would have 2 base BGs.

Dan

Hi Dan,

It is the maxima in the "Total Bases" column(s) that are halved, not the number of bases in the battle groups.

For example, a pre-400AD Shilla army would is able to have 0-18 mounted bases. They have the luxury of a wide range of types to choose from, each of whom also have their maxima halved. So they could select 0-6 horse archers and those come in BGs of 4-6. Since these BGs can only have even numbers essentially that means if you want the horse archers you can have a single BG of either 4 or 6 bases.

Say you also want a Kaya ally. This is an unusual situation. All the BGs must have 4 bases. Since the maxima is halved, you can have 0-6 bases of mounted in total. But the bases available of any one type is 0-2 (0-4 halved). So in practice, this ally can't have any mounted pre 400AD, though they can later on.

Graham .....

So nice of you to join in and help me understand. My interest is making an army list for Kofun Nara prior to 400AD. From what you tell me if you take a Korean Ally pre400AD the ally can not take any mounted bases. WOW ..........

If you scan the web there are many examples of folks taking mounted units as part of an 3KK ally.

madaxeman.com#sthash.FtWIOSuO.dpuf offer and example as do others

Kofun-Nara Japanese sometime just before 400 AD

6 Pacified Emishi LF Unprot Poor Undrilled Bow
6 Pacified Emishi LF Unprot Poor Undrilled Bow
3 Korean Spearmen MF Protected Average Drilled - Heavy Weapon, 3 Korean Archers MF Protected Average Drilled Bow - -
3 Korean Spearmen MF Protected Average Drilled - Heavy Weapon, 3 Korean Crossbowmen MF Protected Average Drilled Crossbow - -
6 Nobles & Retainers MF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Armoured Superior Undrilled Bow
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen
4 Korean Horse Archers LH Unprot Average Drilled Bow - Sword
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Armoured Superior Undrilled Bow
6 Nobles and Retainers MF Armoured Superior Undrilled Bow
8 Nobles and Retainers MF Armoured Superior Undrilled Bow
C-in-C TC - - - - - -
Sub-commander TC
Sub-commander TC - - - - - - - 1
Ally General TC
798 AP, 13 BG, +0 pre battle initiative

Seems a bit extreme to lop off the horse option........ but I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts and views.Seems I'm always learning something new about this game I love.....

Dan

Not an army I've ever used or fought against...

Say you also want a Kaya ally. This is an unusual situation. All the BGs must have 4 bases. Since the maxima is halved, you can have 0-6 bases of mounted in total. But the bases available of any one type is 0-2 (0-4 halved). So in practice, this ally can't have any mounted pre 400AD, though they can later on.

I struggled to get my head around this at first but on looking at the book I believe you are correct Graham. But I can also understand why a list checker might allow a single BG of cav - albeit in error.

Yes I think what's happened here is that the list writer has forgotten that in that date range make the ally list very strange. I've certainly seen Kofun Nara with the ally and it had a unit of mounted. So it could well be that a list checker would take a differenet view.

I'm not cure that the ally adds too much to the Kofun-Nara to be honest - the infantry make for a bit of a weak spot as their shooting isn't great.

grahambriggs wrote:the infantry make for a bit of a weak spot as their shooting isn't great.

But thats all there is

Graham, Pete, Gozerius, Stephen,Phil and all the rest that took a look,

Thank you for all the input and discussion ..... I have to admit I am sure surprised at the answer ..... as I sure wanted to run some 2 stand Lancer Cav with my KN.... Oh well ....... I should have known this was the correct answer as in most games I play I subscribe to the RAW principle, "Rules as Written." My only excuse was somehow I thought that the max size of the battle group was also a mounted maximum that was cut in half also. Then BG of 4-6 in the main army list would be reduced to a BG of 3 bases. Following that logic the ally max of 4 bases /BG would be reduced to 2 .......

Still sounds good .......... but I understand, your collective view is that the max mumber of bases in a mounted battle group is not a maximum that is subject to the army restrictions of the (*). OK

BTW. I'm Coordinating the US Team Tournament in Jan 2015. Being held here in Biloxi, MS on the beach at the Quality Inn... Stephen L. is list checking for us and I mentioned this topic to him.... Then I looked and you guys are quoting him about tomatoes and Potatoes ????? Oh Well.... If you all find your way over here in Jan.... stop by and play.... be great to meet some of you...... in person ......

Dan

Dan wrote:I'm Coordinating the US Team Tournament in Jan 2015. <snip> Oh Well.... If you all find your way over here in Jan.... stop by and play.... be great to meet some of you...... in person ......

Have we been forgiven for sending Dave over 2 years ago then? Have you changed the rules so we can put a team in next year?

A team would be most welcomed. You would be ineligible to win (ie represent the US at the ITC) but otherwise it would be a bunch of fun to have you put a team and vine help us separate the cream from the curd.

Gino
SMAC

Let me echo Gino's words of welcome. It sure would be nice if our friends across the way brought a team and came out to play ........
It would also be nice if one of you agreed with my original premise then we could continue this discussion long enough for all of you to be convinced. Remember RAW all mounted troops maxima are halved ...(not just some but all) ..... the max number of bases in a mounted battle group .... is .... a .... maxima .....RAW ... Rules as Written ....

As always, most respectfully,
Dan

It would also be nice if one of you agreed with my original premise then we could continue this discussion long enough for all of you to be convinced. Remember RAW all mounted troops maxima are halved ...(not just some but all) ..... the max number of bases in a mounted battle group .... is .... a .... maxima .....RAW ... Rules as Written ....

Unfortunately not Dan. Check out pages 154 & 155 in the EotD army lists. These should make it clear that there is a distinction between minima and maxima bases in an army and the number of bases in a BG.

But if you are the list checker for your event you can pretty much do what you want.

Pete, all,
Great ........ Game, Set, Match ..............
BG upper limit size range value NOT a maxima per rules ........ RaW ........ all the way ........
Just needed to see where it was ....... Thanks Pete ............ and all ............
Stephen...... this should mean no horsey BG for early KN ........
I will always play it this way from now on ................
Thanks all the discussion was great......
Hope to have another soon ...... great fun.....
And remember ........ we would love to see ya'll in Jan if you get the chance ...........
Dan
USTT 2015, SMAC 3.5, SMALA 1.0, .......... and others not yet defined .................