Slitherine

Hi, I been trying to design a mod based on Gear Krieg (A tabletop tactical wargame by Dreampod 9). For those unfamiliar with it, its basically a super science alternate reality on WW2 with walker tanks and alot of wunderwaffe weapons pushed forward about a few years so jets appear earlier and some more sci-fi stuff like Nicolai Tesla bulding electro type weapons for the allies.

Basically, I need help designing the walker's stats and points. Just to give you a better idea, these are the key points to a walker.
1. They can transform from a tank mode to a walker mode.
2. They are supposed to be inferior to tanks in open terrain but are deadly in close/urban terrain.
3. They are supposed to support(not replace) tanks in a blitzkrieg, acting as scout/flankers and infantry support in a way.

I am currently testing the earliest version called a Loki or Panzerkampfer IV Ausf. A.
1. This version was equipped with twin MGs (but only carrying about 250 rounds) and carried walker sized grenades
2. had nearly the same armor as a Panzer I
3. a deployment range of 65km.
4. It was armless and when in Tank mode, used wheels as its motive system.

What I decided on was to use the switch command to switch between its walker and tank mode. So far in my testing, The dual role of an armored recon/infantry unit in the 39GC has been fun.

The pre-41 models are supposed to be weak, until a more capable computer is designed and the mid-late war versions are supposed to be very capable at their jobs. There are 4 published chassis for the germans which are
Loki - 7 tonnes
Valkyrie - 7.5 tonnes
Donner - 8 tonnes
Uller - 9.5 tonnes

I would appreciate any feedback on how to adjust the points and stats accordingly. My basic concept/goals for these walkers are
1. To complement infantry rather than replace them, like a super heavy infantry.
2. To excel in Close Quarter combat vs. Armour but lose to them in open terrain.
3. Limited in Deployment range by limiting their fuel/ammo to force them to re-supply often.
4. I am considering making them use RoF to represent their nimbleness. Basically pepper more weak shots than give them some big attack value (The standard loki/Valkyrie were equipped with a 3.7cm gun at its height, the Donner/Thor used a 5cm gun and they carried panzerfaust). The rulebook describe 3 computers, 1938-40 (D1 model), 41-43(D2 model), 44+ (D3 model) and each was described as providing more computing power which made the walkers more agile/maneuverable in combat.

Thanks in advance!

Hello, I've never heard of this game before but the units remind me a bit of the Panzerklein of Silent Storm; I'm not sure if I can offer useful advice but I'll just put in some thoughts. I googled for some pictures of the Loki to get some idea of size and features.

I need help designing the walker's stats and points. Just to give you a better idea, these are the key points to a walker.
1. They can transform from a tank mode to a walker mode.
2. They are supposed to be inferior to tanks in open terrain but are deadly in close/urban terrain.
3. They are supposed to support(not replace) tanks in a blitzkrieg, acting as scout/flankers and infantry support in a way.

1. Seems you made the right choice for a switchable unit.
2. Inferiority to tanks: what causes this? Is it lack of range, poor armour? It's hard to say what stats need adjusting without this knowledge. For the second bit infantry class is good, or you can give them the 'close' trait, which triggers this ability I believe. You can also give them the 'meng' trait which means they ignore enemy entrenchment if you want them to be close combat specialists.
3. I see you have made the switch version a recon unit, which is fine. You can also give any unit the 'reconmove' trait (even tanks) to make them act like recon without being in the recon class.

1. This version was equipped with twin MGs (but only carrying about 250 rounds) and carried walker sized grenades
2. had nearly the same armor as a Panzer I
3. a deployment range of 65km.
4. It was armless and when in Tank mode, used wheels as its motive system.

1. That is very little ammo, what kind of MG's are those? 7.92mm or bigger? For what it is worth, a regular PzC tank with MG's would probably have an ammo stat of max 2. Compare with stock PzC tanks that are armed solely with MG's: Panzer I (~2000 rnds = 6-7 ammo), Matilda I (~4000 rnds = 8 ammo) and the L3/35 (~4800 rnds = 11 ammo).
What are 'walker sized grenades'? Any stats or pictures of those, I understand the Loki's can carry different armaments and I wasn't sure what was on them in the pictures I found.

2. What is your logic behind the changed GD of the walker/car version? Is one version more vulnerable than the other?

3. Again, that is very low, is this a 'radius of action' or actual road range after it needs refueling? 65km would mean roughly 16 fuel, which you can double if it is the radius of action.

4. Do the weapons work differently for each mode? For example, can it rotate its guns normally?


Do you have any links where I can learn a bit more about the gaming system and the units? I'll think about the stats some more and check back later to comment on your other questions.

Good luck!

Hi Thvn,

Thanks for the reply and interest. I was re-reading my post and realised I sort of just rambled and I apologise

Here are some links with more background info:
Brief overview of the walkers/supertanks of Gearkrieg http://www.freewebs.com/jakarnilson/gk_vehicles.html
Nice pictures of the walkers in their various modes and variants http://www.agisn.de/html/gear_krieg_axis.html
PDF of the rulebooks http://angelina.3guys.org/RPG/GearKrieg/

Clearer version of the key points for walkers are:
1. They can transform between a walker and a vehicle mode. The primary mode for combat is the walker mode, the vehicle mode is more for strategic mobility, tactical flanking or just escaping.
2. Due to technological, chassis and engine constraints, walkers tend to be light in tonnage thus limited in armour and size. The early walkers were comparable to armoured recon or light tank in terms of weapons and armor protection.
3. They were initially envisioned to provide mobile heavy support for infantry in terrain where tanks would fare poorly (urban, lots of cover), their speed and mobility would also allow them to support tanks in a blitzkrieg.
4. When in walker mode, they can stand to about 2 to 3m tall. This gives them a height/view advantage when in combat/supporting infantry. (Sort of stated as an advantage in the books quite a few times)
5. In various story descriptions, walkers were described as being quite nimble in combat and able to melee with infantry with punches, kicks and stomping.

1. That is very little ammo, what kind of MG's are those? 7.92mm or bigger? For what it is worth, a regular PzC tank with MG's would probably have an ammo stat of max 2. Compare with stock PzC tanks that are armed solely with MG's: Panzer I (~2000 rnds = 6-7 ammo), Matilda I (~4000 rnds = 8 ammo) and the L3/35 (~4800 rnds = 11 ammo).
What are 'walker sized grenades'? Any stats or pictures of those, I understand the Loki's can carry different armaments and I wasn't sure what was on them in the pictures I found.

2. What is your logic behind the changed GD of the walker/car version? Is one version more vulnerable than the other?

3. Again, that is very low, is this a 'radius of action' or actual road range after it needs refueling? 65km would mean roughly 16 fuel, which you can double if it is the radius of action.

4. Do the weapons work differently for each mode? For example, can it rotate its guns normally?

1. The Loki Ausf. A was armed with twin MG 38s. The walker sized grenades were probably the size of a 1.2L soft drink bottle, they never really did explain what they look like but it could be held and thrown by the walker arms.

3. Not stated very clearly unfortunately, so I don't have a proper answer for that.

2 and 4: I was trying to reflect the advantage of the walker mode's extra mobility and height over the vehicle mode (take cover, use grenades, etc). In walker mode, they are more mobile so they can reposition their body easier (where the MGs are) and the MGs are on a limited traverse gun turret.

My current goal at the moment is to come up with workable stats/system to use for these walkers.
1. How to properly point them.
2. How to properly classify them (I'm torn between making their primaries in their variant role(Recon, AA, AT, etc) with the switch secondary as infantry or Making their primary as infantry and the switch into the variant role)
3. How to assign them stats properly to reflect their strengths and weaknesses.
4. I also decided not to follow the Gear Krieg world blindly for the sake of gaming fun. (fuel/ammo/etc)

I have done a few test run with the Loki Aust A and B. My impression so far is not bad, they fill the recon role nicely and are able to perform in close/urban terrain in the walker mode. I might lower their ammo more to force them to supply more often as I found the combination of speed and ability to attack cities by themselves without having to wait for infantry to be fairly powerful. I think also due to them having hard armor, they take less damage from defending infantry even with their low GD.

My overall goal is to create a complete mod for this game which would comprise of
1. Adding all the cannon walkers/supertanks/adv. planes in
2. Adjusting the year availability as the superscience portion accelerated the development of all the stuff that came out.
3. using the switch mode more for the regular stuff like AA ground mode, etc.
4. create a proper campaign for this mod.
(Don't expect too much too fast as I only started to learn how to mod this game like a week ago.)

I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions as you can assume I know nothing
I have a love for pulp action, steampunk and superscience stuff (Crimson Skies was another tactical boardgame I loved) and PzC seems quite suitable for modding this in.
Thanks again in advance!

Hi, no need to apologise, it can be difficult to put a lot of information in a post and I would rather have too much than tool little info! And thanks for the links, those were very helpful, I've spend some time reading so my reply it a little late.

Some things I figured out so far about GearKrieg (GK) stats and how well they translate to some PzC stats:

Cost (points): even for stock PzC units determining cost is difficult, there seems to be no real formula. The 'Threat Values' sometimes seem a bit odd/inconsistent to me when compared to PzC's more 'realistic' values (M3 Grant higher than M4 Sherman?). A good starting point would be to multiply the Threat Value with 7 to get a rough PzC cost, and work from there. Adjusting units on the more extreme ends of the cost spectrum can be difficult, maybe try to take a 'typical' medium walker to get a better comparison.

Fuel: Good news, the GK 'Deployment Range' of the units can be roughly translated in the PzC fuel stat by dividing it with 2.4 (again, roughly). So a deployment range of 65km would give a basic PzC fuel of 27. I usually adjust fuel up and down from this baseline to represent very reliable or unreliable vehicles.

Movement: the GK movement costs of the walkers through terrain are higher than those of infantry but lower than other vehicles. So perhaps a different PzC movement type (or a custom one) would be appropiate, or their move might need some reduction. Right now they seem relatively fast through poor terrain in PzC, for example they are now able to walk two swamp hexes where a regular infantry can only do one.



Some quick comments:

Initiative will be tricky, as it does not just represent range but it very important for combat result (although less so in poor terrain).

When in walker mode, they can stand to about 2 to 3m tall. This gives them a height/view advantage when in combat/supporting infantry. (Sort of stated as an advantage in the books quite a few times)

They seem a lot taller to me? The wheeled version seem to be around 2m already, I'm not sure how well the models are scaled, but a Maus tank is more than 3.5m tall and it is being dwarfed in the pictures? It doesn't really matter much but I'm trying to get an idea of their size/weight proportions.

In various story descriptions, walkers were described as being quite nimble in combat and able to melee with infantry with punches, kicks and stomping.

Melee attacks will be tricky to model, with a high CD (Close defense perhaps), a higher SA (Soft Attack) in cobination with low Ini or perhaps a trait or something.

1. The Loki Ausf. A was armed with twin MG 38s.

So rifle-calibre, 7.92mm, for comparison purposes. The MG34 (I assume '38' is a typo?) was a common machinegun on tanks, and other GK guns seem comparable as well, so stats for those will be little problem.

The walker sized grenades were probably the size of a 1.2L soft drink bottle, they never really did explain what they look like but it could be held and thrown by the walker arms.

Thanks for the explanation, I found a description in the rulebook that they are spring- or gas propelled (so very short range), and the size you gave means I have a fairly good impression on how to compare it with existing weapons. BTW, it seems a bit strange to me that GK seems to take little advantage of the many experimental (but actually existing) weapons that were developed, especially with their well researched background in some other fields (like how they use Konrad Zuse in the backstory).

I was trying to reflect the advantage of the walker mode's extra mobility and height over the vehicle mode (take cover, use grenades, etc). In walker mode, they are more mobile so they can reposition their body easier (where the MGs are) and the MGs are on a limited traverse gun turret.

OK, that makes sense. Taller vehicles make for better firing platforms (but are also better targets), so I wasn't sure how you determined the GD values for them. Gun turrets with very limited firing arcs will be a bit tricky to model, but the easiest is to just give them a slightly lower Ini or attack values. I noticed some of these turrets are actually remote-controlled with sights/computers, which is interesting because a couple of such systems were actually used in combat during WW2 (for example on the B-29 and Me 410).

My current goal at the moment is to come up with workable stats/system to use for these walkers.
1. How to properly point them.
2. How to properly classify them (I'm torn between making their primaries in their variant role(Recon, AA, AT, etc) with the switch secondary as infantry or Making their primary as infantry and the switch into the variant role)
3. How to assign them stats properly to reflect their strengths and weaknesses.
4. I also decided not to follow the Gear Krieg world blindly for the sake of gaming fun. (fuel/ammo/etc)

1: Difficult to come up with concrete figures, it will require some tweaking after testing. It's best to first focus on the combat stats I think.

2: Depends on which model walker is being portrayed, I guess. It would make sense to have a common basic class for their primary mode (infantry?), but the switchables can be in other classes to model their armament fit/role better perhaps.

3: Doable I think, the tricky part will be to balance them to the existing units, so some baseline values might have to be settled on first.

4: Always a good idea, the gaming scale seems very different, and you don't have to handicap yourself.

I have done a few test run with the Loki Aust A and B. My impression so far is not bad, they fill the recon role nicely and are able to perform in close/urban terrain in the walker mode. I might lower their ammo more to force them to supply more often as I found the combination of speed and ability to attack cities by themselves without having to wait for infantry to be fairly powerful. I think also due to them having hard armor, they take less damage from defending infantry even with their low GD.

You can always adjust the existing PzC units as well, in essence tweak the whole unit roster so the walkers will fit in better. It's a lot more work but it might be easier than trying to mesh the walkers into the existing system. The balance will be thrown off by including these types of new units anyway, so it could give better results in the long term if everything gets a little tweak.

My overall goal is to create a complete mod for this game which would comprise of
1. Adding all the cannon walkers/supertanks/adv. planes in
2. Adjusting the year availability as the superscience portion accelerated the development of all the stuff that came out.
3. using the switch mode more for the regular stuff like AA ground mode, etc.
4. create a proper campaign for this mod.

1: You'll need unit icons of course, but some members here are pumping out new units at a stunning rate, and there are already 'What if?' planes and other units available. I even saw an E10 recently.

2: Easy.

3: Some modders have already done this, and a lot of switchable units are already available.

4: There is good info floating around how to do this, it will depend how well you get along with the scenario editor, of course.

Don't expect too much too fast as I only started to learn how to mod this game like a week ago. I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions as you can assume I know nothing

Excellent. So you haven't picked up any bad habits yet.

I have a love for pulp action, steampunk and superscience stuff (Crimson Skies was another tactical boardgame I loved) and PzC seems quite suitable for modding this in.

Your mod sounds a bit like a cross between PzC and the upcoming WH40k game (which is being made by the same devs). It's certainly different!

At last Dream Pod 9 "Gear Krieg" disembarked in the PzCorps universe! Those walkers are special for the "switch" button!

Good idea!
Also, I love the very informed posts written by ThvN!

Thums up!

A question: Who will take the task of porting robotech mecha to this universe?

What are you planning on doing about the graphics? It's kinda hard to find decently aligned photos of the miniatures online.
Do you own them yourself and can provide those? Or will you do all the graphics yourself?

In any event, cool idea, I hope you'll manage to come up with something playable eventually.


_____
rezaf

Thanks for the feedback!

I played with them a little more over the weekend. I made a rough upgrade path for the walkers plus a timeline chart based off the GK history. Also made a baseline for all 4 models and their roles in the war.

1. Many units would have their availability date advanced as my impression of the GK universe is that many nations actually combat-fielded units in their testing stage in small numbers rather than just keep it to the prototype stage in an effort to keep up with the techological advances. (Was referencing the in-service dates of GK with the actual planes/tanks and realised that)
2. I sense a major leap in technology in certain years so I decided to make a rough timeline guide for the units

Timeline: Basic Walker guidelines will follow:
1.Walker mode will have better stats to reflect the increase mobility and use of arms in combat.

2.Ground mode will feature better movement speeds, arm based weapons can only be used in a locked position.

3. They will tend to have lower fuel/ammo to comparable units that they are trying to represent.

4. Light walkers will have a foot move of 4, medium and heavy will have a foot move of 3.

5. Light walkers will switch into a recon role, medium and heavy will switch into a tank role.

6. Will try to limit armor based improvements to reflect their low tonnage, will prefer to improve other stats to increase their odds.

7. There will be 3 main upgrades for the walkers which will follow the development of the D Computator line.
D1: 1939, basic D1 computator. no special benefits
D2: 1941, D2 Computator. Better stats involved with maneuverability, Loki gets a RoF 11
D3: 1943, D3 Computator. Better stats yet again, Loki gets RoF 12, Valkyrie gets Rof 11.
?D4: 1944-45? D4 Computator. Not sure about this upgrade but if it gets implemented, than Loki gets RoF13, Valkyrie gets RoF 12 and Donner gets RoF 11.

My basic progression timeline for the walkers are
I have started to made icons using pictures of miniatures I found off the web as placeholders. I am no good at 3D modelling unless someone is willing to help me in that aspect. I am thinking of making a sample scenario by the end of this week with walkers on both sides for people to help me test them. I have been focusing on the german side so far but I can probably get the British Cavalier done quickly enough and plan a simple scenario from that. I am using a modified 39 GC as my test bed atm, so I need to prepare the British walkers and French Char AMX48a Supertank for the 40 GC anyway.

To ThvN:

Thanks for the detailed comments, you are right on some of my mistakes. The walkers are taller than I remember
When I was designing the stats, my main idea was
Initiative: higher than normal to represent their height, agility and speed advantage.
CD: To represent their better melee potential and again their agility in close terrain.
Higher Attack and Defense values in Walker mode: Again to represent their Walker advantages.

The thing is, I am not sure if I am trying too hard to create a niche for them in the game or not. In a way, I noticed the values that I am trying to make their advantage tends to be the ones that the other existing units don't usually get much improvement in. Its also not easy to represent their fragile(compared to tanks) yet tough nature using PzC stats.

On the grenades, The little tube launchers or the sachets hanging off their sides are the grenades. Early models used launchers while later models tended to throw them using their arms.

Once I get the baseline stats for the walkers firmed up, than I will see how best to do the other portions. Re-doing the entire rooster to balance them against my walkers seems daunting. If I can get permission from the other modders, I will probably try to incorporate their existing switchable units instead of doing it myself. Is it possible to create a completely new movement type, I was not aware of that?

As for the experimental weapons they did not incorporate into the game, I am more than open to them if you can point them out. At the moment, from my own research, I think modding the game up to 42 is easy enough once I can finalise the stats. its from 42 onwards that it gets a little crazy as all the real "what if" Wunderwaffe stuff comes into play.

rezaf wrote:What are you planning on doing about the graphics? It's kinda hard to find decently aligned photos of the miniatures online.
Do you own them yourself and can provide those? Or will you do all the graphics yourself?

In any event, cool idea, I hope you'll manage to come up with something playable eventually.

_____
rezaf

Hi rezaf,

I already have made a bunch of the Loki and variants and some of the Valkyries from pictures I found online. I think I have enough to do all the German Loki and Valkyries and variants that I have planned. The Donner and Uller are tough as while I think I have enough for the walker modes, I can't seem to have any images of them in their ground mode so I may need help on those. They aren't very well done though as I am trying to do a bunch of stuff at the same time, I been mainly focusing on getting just enough to try them ingame. Just looking at your sample, I can tell my own stuff is sorely lacking..lol

I also managed to find enough stock images for the early British and US walkers which I plan to start on later this week. I got no skill in 3D modeling or re-skinning so I will probably need help later in those areas.

I think my real nightmare will begin when trying to incorporate stuff that do not exist in real life like the French Supertank or conceptual aircraft/tanks.

Here are some of what I have done so far. I been making the icons as I need them.

Loki Ausf. A Kampfer Big Unit


Loki Ausf. A Kampfer Mode


Loki Ausf.A Ground Big Unit


Loki Ausf. A Ground Mode


Loki Ausf. B Kampfer Big Unit


Loki Ausf. B Kampfer Mode


Loki Ausf. B Ground Big Unit


Loki Ausf. B Ground Mode


Current revised stats and based with infantry as primary mode
2000 Loki A 0 180 6 32 4 2 0 3 4 1 0 1 6 10 3 1 0 PzKpf_IVA_K.png 1.1.1939 1.1.1942 3 PanzerKämpfer IV Ausf. A primary close minekiller PzKpfIV 2001 sea rail glider
2001 Loki A 2 180 6 32 8 3 0 2 3 1 0 1 5 7 2 1 0 PzKpf_IVA.png 1.1.1939 1.1.1942 2 PanzerKämpfer IV Ausf. A nopurchase PzKpfIV 2000 sea rail glider
2002 Loki B 0 220 5 38 4 2 0 4 3 4 0 1 7 11 3 1 0 PzKpf_IVB_K.png 1.4.1940 1.1.1943 3 PanzerKämpfer IV Ausf. B primary close minekiller glider PzKpfIV 2003 sea rail glider
2003 Loki B 2 220 5 38 8 3 0 3 2 4 0 1 6 8 2 1 0 PzKpf_IVB.png 1.4.1940 1.1.1943 2 PanzerKämpfer IV Ausf. B nopurchase PzKpfIV 2002 sea rail glider

Units are looking great
I think you have something amazing in the making here.

Yeah, those aren't so bad - the only thing you have to add is shadows.

The perspective is of course different, but if you have to make do with pictures from the web, it's often a flaw you have to live with, unless you have the required skills to either repaint the icons or make actual 3D models.

Like I wrote, I hope you'll turn this into a playable campaign eventually. As fun as the historical stuff can be, it'd be great to have something "different" to play.
_____
rezaf

Thanks nikvdd! I have been quite nervous about posting these online for some time. I been lurking around these forums for over 2 years and only decided on doing this because I only recently realised that modding PzC was easier than I imagined.

As mentioned, once I can settle the baseline stats for the walkers, the rest of the stuff will probably come out quick until I run out of stock images to use, although I suspect making a campaign for this would be slow too.

And guille1434, don't tempt and distract me. My original plan was to try my hand at Fantasy Flight's Dust Tactics next but the scope of GK alone makes me think this project is going to eat a lot of my personal time.

I might give a mecha type mod a serious go once I get this done, although my first thought would be based on some of the ground based mecha anime like Armored Trooper VOTOMs or Code Geass Knightmare Frames. If Pacific Corps ever comes out with proper capitol ship critical damage rules and stuff, I would seriously consider a macross based mod.

regret wrote:this project is going to eat a lot of my personal time.

I will warn you now - my WWI mod (which I think would be somewhat similar in terms of size and detail) took just short of 5 months, and my previous mods have all taken about 3 months apiece.

So say goodbye to everything you used to do as you enter the MODDING WORLD!

- BNC

Just wondering, anyone care to try their hand at making this into a unit pic for me?
France's Super Tank Char AMX48A "Grognard"

rezaf wrote:Yeah, those aren't so bad - the only thing you have to add is shadows.

The perspective is of course different, but if you have to make do with pictures from the web, it's often a flaw you have to live with, unless you have the required skills to either repaint the icons or make actual 3D models.

Like I wrote, I hope you'll turn this into a playable campaign eventually. As fun as the historical stuff can be, it'd be great to have something "different" to play.
_____
rezaf

I'm not sure how to add shadows yet, I probably try to learn that later when I get more stuff done first. Unless I can find someone else who is willing to help me on the graphics side, I'll settle for my placeholder stuff for the moment

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
I will warn you now - my WWI mod (which I think would be somewhat similar in terms of size and detail) took just short of 5 months, and my previous mods have all taken about 3 months apiece.

So say goodbye to everything you used to do as you enter the MODDING WORLD!

- BNC

I know, I've modded for my personal use in Hearts of Iron and the Total War series many times and my wife is always amazed by the amount of charts I can generate just to play a game. I was initially just contemplating doing a equipment list and icons, but ended up doing a timeline and technology chart just to keep everything organised. Now I am studying the panzer variants to better understand what prompted the upgrades so I can mirror them on my walkers. Plus advance the technology of the world a couple of years forward so have to decide what planes/tanks appear when and which models would never appear as they would be outclassed/outdated by the newer tech. For example, it seems the Bf109K model was never used in GK but a Bf109W exist (Jet variant) which is based on the real-life Bf109TL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109TL

I have yet to try my hand at creating scenarios from scratch, so have to see where that leads me.

Had a busy day, so a little late and brief for now...

regret wrote:The thing is, I am not sure if I am trying too hard to create a niche for them in the game or not. In a way, I noticed the values that I am trying to make their advantage tends to be the ones that the other existing units don't usually get much improvement in. Its also not easy to represent their fragile(compared to tanks) yet tough nature using PzC stats.

The defense stats seem to be the most difficult to model. The walkers seem quite fragile to me, with all those hydraulics everywhere, so you are correct that their survivability comes mostly from their agility and being able to use terrain to their advantage more easily. It's a bit hard to give solid recommendations about GD, the ground target types are usually only 'Soft' or 'Hard', and infantry usually has fairly decent SA, and later tanks have high HA but their SA is relatively limited. So it would seem a 'Hard' target is more logical, but how much GD they should get is more difficult to say. It will probably be a matter of playtesting to see if it matches up with your experiences from Gear Krieg?

Is it possible to create a completely new movement type, I was not aware of that?

In the PzC main Data folder, there is a file called movement.pzdat, which outlines the existing movement types, I am not 100% sure if additions can be made but some types (like River) are rarely used and can be changed into Walker type.

On the grenades, The little tube launchers or the sachets hanging off their sides are the grenades. Early models used launchers while later models tended to throw them using their arms.

Sorry about my strange focus on those, I figured that's where a lot of their firepower comes from, at first I figured they were like mortar shells or maybe Nahverteidigungswaffe. But your description helped a lot, and I've remembered some pretty obscure German explosive devices that could be some sort of inspiration for those, maybe something like:

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe/ge ... netic.html

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe/ge ... 3kilo.html


Or, if you want to go more old-school in the looks department, how about this Rollbombe demolition charge?

As for the experimental weapons they did not incorporate into the game, I am more than open to them if you can point them out. At the moment, from my own research, I think modding the game up to 42 is easy enough once I can finalise the stats. its from 42 onwards that it gets a little crazy as all the real "what if" Wunderwaffe stuff comes into play.

Oh dear. I'm starting to have doubts if I should have brought this up... This may be going to far off-topic and is heavily dependant on (your) personal interests, so if it is not what you had in mind just let me know. I need a little time to dig up some bookmarks, but here are some Wunderwaffe weapons I know off the top of my head that I assumed would show up somewhere in the GK universe:

The energy weapons are very far-fetched, esp. the lasers, but there was actual 'death-ray' research in those days, which used devices known as Rheotrons or Betatrons to trigger radiation waves like X-Rays; it led do the development of X-ray machines and micro-wave ovens. The sonic cannon is real, but so is the Windkanone, a vortex creating gun: http://www.militaryimages.net/forums/sh ... ind-Cannon

Maybe the V3 'Hockdruckpumpe' type weapons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon would be easier to fit in than particle accelerators and Sonic/Vortex weapons, though.

Also, since computers and sighting devices make these turreted walkers possible, another 'advanced' concept in those days would become actually viable: the Turret Fighter. Most famous of those is the Bolton-Paul Defiant, but there are other lesser-known creations as well.

Some more 'realistic' stuff:

GK books mention radio- and wire controlled missiles, but there were more advanced weapons actually trialled: like the Hs 293D missile that had a camera in it's nose and the operator could watch on a screen in the bomber plane and guide it with a joystick. Very advanced for it's day. And the USA were testing an actual pigeon guided bomb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon.

German SG-series of weapons: these were downward or upward firing recoilles weapons mounted on airplanes, what makes them special is that they were triggered automatically by magnetic or optical sensors.

SG-113 against tanks:

SG-500 Jagerfaust, this upward-firing variant was mounted on a Me 163, it was triggered by flying underneath a bomber, actually trialled, there are photos of one of the testing machines:



Fliegerfaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fliegerfaust This omission surprised me, to be honest.

Some cool-looking mineclearing vehicles here: http://blog.tankpedia.org/category/mine-sweeper/

About more general stuff like cannons and machineguns, there were pretty advanced models being developed at the time. In the GK descriptions, the vehicle cannons seem a bit old-fashioned and generic before they suddenly go all-out with the science-fiction energy weapons, but there are plenty of interesting 'convential' weapons that could be interesting. For example I expected the squeeze-bore guns to be mentioned as a nice 'retro-futuristic' weapon. Some other existing weapons I expected: a German revolver-type cannon that served as the basis for many Western aircraft guns after the war, the MG-213.

Also, the Americans shelved a lot of developments because they didn't need them, like the .90 calibre (23mm) project: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CAL90.html. And right after the war a lot of infantry weapons were trialled, like the for the time quite futuristic designs by Korobov and of course the British EM-2. Although most obscure weapons are German, actually the Allies had some pretty interesting projects as well.

I'm a bit of a loon when it comes to obscure military hardware, so I'll stop for now...

Sorry about my strange focus on those, I figured that's where a lot of their firepower comes from, at first I figured they were like mortar shells or maybe Nahverteidigungswaffe. But your description helped a lot, and I've remembered some pretty obscure German explosive devices that could be some sort of inspiration for those

Well, The evolution of their handheld explosives seems to have started with the launcher and hand held thrown grenades, later on they moved on to defensive anti-personnel charges (the air burst grenades that explodes around them killing infantry around them but unable to penetrate their own armor).

About more general stuff like cannons and machineguns, there were pretty advanced models being developed at the time. In the GK descriptions, the vehicle cannons seem a bit old-fashioned and generic before they suddenly go all-out with the science-fiction energy weapons

The GK lore on Walkers seems quite fixed that the walkers due to their light weight/size could only handle certain categories of weapons. They mention that walkers tend to be only able to handle up to 5cm autocannons, anything more required extensive modification/specialisation. For example there is a Uller variant called the Rhino that mounted the 8.8cm flak gun in a anti-tank role.

So the progression for weapons on walkers started with conventional weapons, specifically aircraft mounted cannons adapted for walker use. Later they moved to panzerfaust for anti-tank, I think the 3.7cm anti-tank gun was the biggest I seen mentioned for general use. Late war, they started using guided AT missiles and lasers. For gun heavy walkers like the Flak Valkyrie that mounted quad 2cm guns(from the 2 cm Flakvierling), they removed the ground mode completely in order to create a stable enough platform.

Oh dear. I'm starting to have doubts if I should have brought this up... This may be going to far off-topic and is heavily dependant on (your) personal interests, so if it is not what you had in mind just let me know. I need a little time to dig up some bookmarks, but here are some Wunderwaffe weapons I know off the top of my head that I assumed would show up somewhere in the GK universe:

I don't mind, one problem with the GK universe is that they sort of left things hanging at 43-44. Yet there was one source book released later that was based post-WW2, basically a cold war sourcebook between the Soviets and US plus allies which stated that Germany lost. Plus the game was shelved by Dream Pod 9 so nothing was released after. So like I mentioned before, post 43 is going to give me a lot of headaches as most of the 44-45 vehicles/tech already starts appearing in 42-44 which means 44-45 should be based on a lot of secret weapons that never left the drawing board. So when I reach closer to those years, I would seriously welcome input on what would/could have appeared.

Another thing is in the GK universe, there seems an assumption that many of the failed prototypes/concepts worked because the inventors managed to overcome the hurdles that baffled them in RL and also with advanced computators to do the number crunching.

For example, Nicolai Tesla got national level support and funds from France to develop his theories and birthed the Tesla Guns and later the soviets got him to develop railguns for them.
The Me209 was the mainstay fighter for the germans during the Battle of Britain. From what I read, that project was a complete failure in real life but the stats ingame seems to show a faster and more maneuverable fighter than the Bf109f with 2 MG131 and 1 MG151 but with lower armor and fuel(Deployment range 600km vs. BF109 750km)

Televisors and auto-servos were getting common use as early as 42 and rudimentary heatseekers after 44. There was a sidebar in the Luft Krieg source book saying that the Me163 Komets were converted to use Televisors and auto-servos (Early Drones) to use against the bomber formations but the Allies countered with special converted Electronic Warfare B-17s to block the control signals which forced the germans to go back to manned fighters. Televisor wire guided missiles were used in 43 with the Ho229s and later walkers. Infantry based wire-guided AT missiles were in use from 43 too.

Generally the game seems to go along this lines
pre-1939: Basis of Superscience stuff laid down. Germany embraces them to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles.

1940: Hitler shut down any project that requires more than 1 year to complete. Believes that with the easy victories, those projects are not needed. Allies step up their superscience research in an effort to catch up.

1941: Barbarossa shows the germans that they need to up tech, projects are re-started but are crippled. Fortunately the haul of equipment they captured from the Allies at Dunkirk and they also managed to capture a G40 Pioneer Jet that landed mistakenly at one of their airfields. Rocket fighters begin to be fielded by Germans and Japanese.

1942: Many german prototypes are fielded, Germans willing to try almost anything to get an advantage. Jet fighters begin to see mass production with the Me262 and Ardo 234

1943: Albert Speer's industrial reforms starts to take place, also his talents for spotting potentially good projects and giving the proper funding/support proofs a major boon. Many tech are miniaturised and able to use by infantry like portable Laser systems. Hovertanks are one of the first major projects to benefit from these. Ho229 deployed. The E series tanks also go into development and reach production by 44.

So the game basically sorts the tech advances into 3 stages. The ingame ToE also sorts their formations in these way.
39-40: Pretty conventional except for the Walkers and early Tesla Guns (saw limited use only at the Maginot line and Char supertanks)
41-42: Pretty conventional again, mostly just germans improving their AT capabilities against the Soviets. Soviets start to gain Tesla Guns and supertanks. Rocket and Jet planes start to appear extensively in the RAF(Jets only) and Luffwaffe. Many RL 43-45 Stuff starts appearing during this time.
43: Major superscience stuff comes into play.

The other aspect is probably game flavor, GK tries to give each nation its own flavor and style.

Germans: Most advanced walkers designs and has the most dangerous Superscience stuff. Chemically pumped Supersoldiers and zombies, loves prototypes and seems willing to try anything.
British: Laser and Jet(Superior to Germans but loses out late war) tech and prefers sturdy quad walkers to bear heavier guns. Quality is important for them.
USA: Prefers piston aircraft, uses Rocket and Jet fighters late war. Places less focus on superscience and prefers tried and tested.
Soviets: Railguns and supertanks. only developed rocket fighters in 43 and no jets. Used land-leased walkers in 41, only started developing their own in 43 which featured walker only mode but well armored.

I am only basing the Mod on Gearkrieg. There just isn't enough materials to do a complete mod unless I want to end it at 43-44. So I welcome anything that might help, even if it introduces something that is not in the GK world but can be reasonable explained and used.

regret wrote:There just isn't enough materials to do a complete mod unless I want to end it at 43-44.

What do you mean by there's not enough materials?

Also, kinda funny that you discuss these things like they really happend. Makes for a fun read.
I've often enjoyed "lore" backstories - remember the days when they even had them in computer games? You know, when they still bothered to write actual manuals? Some games even shipped with novels...

Frankly, I think the premise behind GK is a bit too ridiculous for my taste - that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to play it, but it means I wouldn't like to make a mod with the system myself. I toyed with the idea of making a mod based on a different alternat history WW2 miniature model line a couple of years back, but there were few decent photos of the miniatures to be found and I didn't wanna purchase and paint them personally, so I gave up on the project.
In other words, you're kinda living my childhood dream.
Unfortunately, judging by the choice of your username, it seems you already don't feel so good about your idea...
_____
rezaf

rezaf wrote:

regret wrote:There just isn't enough materials to do a complete mod unless I want to end it at 43-44.

What do you mean by there's not enough materials?

Also, kinda funny that you discuss these things like they really happend. Makes for a fun read.
I've often enjoyed "lore" backstories - remember the days when they even had them in computer games? You know, when they still bothered to write actual manuals? Some games even shipped with novels...

Frankly, I think the premise behind GK is a bit too ridiculous for my taste - that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to play it, but it means I wouldn't like to make a mod with the system myself. I toyed with the idea of making a mod based on a different alternat history WW2 miniature model line a couple of years back, but there were few decent photos of the miniatures to be found and I didn't wanna purchase and paint them personally, so I gave up on the project.
In other words, you're kinda living my childhood dream.
Unfortunately, judging by the choice of your username, it seems you already don't feel so good about your idea...
_____
rezaf

Lol, my username is sort of the reverse meaning, as in regret the stuff I didn't do or haven't done.

Yeah, the "lore" of a game have always enticed me more than anything. I have forced myself to played some pretty bad systems before just because I loved the lore. GK is actually one of those systems, its way too detailed to make it a really fun tabletop game unless your detailed orientated.

I think I am writing it like this because the books are written that way and I am referencing it rather than trying to create a new reality and asking "what do you think would happened if this happened instead of that.." So to save me some grief and time, I am just basing the mod as close to the GK universe as possible.

Also, because not everyone knows the GK lore or can accept the concept of Superscience, I felt it would probably be easier to explain it in a detailed summary than get a bunch of questions like "but this didn't exist or its not possible even today". And I am also using the lore I written as a guideline for myself to follow as the information was really scattered among all the different sourcebooks. When I finally get my act together and get a working mod out, I will probably start a new thread and condense all the information I got here over there too. I mean like ThvN, he has been really helpful with his comments but he doesn't really understand the lore so he finds it hard to decide what is acceptable or not.

And material wise, what I meant was the 45-46 years, the game seems completely blank on that. There seemed to be hints that the war took an additional year to end because of all the superscience stuff from the germans. But nothing was stated conclusively in the books/lore, they all seem to leave it hanging at 44 and almost everything the germans developed and didn't develop was out in play by 44. which means 45 would include next gen stuff like the fighter that was supposed to replace the Me262, we would probably be seeing Korean War level stuff. but the lore/books don't state what they were.

There lies the problem for me.But I suspect by the time I hit 43-44 and if there is enough interest in the mod, I can prolly get the userbase to me suggest the 45 units that could have been in play.

My thoughts on battle robots: drop the ww2 theme, and call it "Warfare 2200"

- BNC

Got more icons done, starting to really hate making icons. I apologise in advance for the poor icons, but they are the best that I can do Try to get the Donner and Uller done tomorrow and start on the Allied stuff.

Raketen Loki Gound Mode Big Unit


Raketen Loki Gound Mode


Raketen Loki Kampfer Mode Big Unit


Raketen Loki Kampfer Artillery Mode


Flak Loki Ground Mode Big Unit


Flak Loki Ground Mode


Flak Loki Kampfer Big Unit


Flak Loki Kampfer AA Mode


Flak Loki Kampfer Ground Attack Mode


Valkyrie Ground Mode Big Unit


Valkyrie Ground Mode


Valkyrie Kampfer Big Unit


Valkyrie Kampfer Mode


Flak Valkyrie Big Unit


Flak Valkyrie AA Mode


Flak Valkyrie Gound Attack Mode


Raketen Valkyrie Ground Mode Big Unit


Raketen Valkyrie Ground Mode


Raketen Valkyrie Kampfer Big Unit


Raketen Valkyrie Kampfer Ground Attack Mode


Raketen Valkyrie Kampfer Artillery Mode