Slitherine

I would like to sort out the themes for this years competition so that I can publish them, preferably before the end of April. I intend to retain one early and one later Western theme and one more Eastern theme. This year the Fog R competition is sponsored by the Pike and Shot society. So far my thoughts are:

Early Western. Age of the Tercio. Armies must include at least two Early Tercio GBGs.

Later Western. TYW/ECW. I'd like to push this towards more balanced armies and my current thinking is along the lines restricting Superior (or elite) troops to the extent that both Mounted and Foot Superior/Elite BGs may not exceed the number of Average/Poor BGs of that type. e.g. to have 3 Superior Foot BGs you would need to have 3 Average/Poor Foot BGs, only counting battle troops, excluding Artillery/Commanded Shot.

Eastern. A cavalry based theme including the Poles/Tartars/Russians/Cossacks.

I'd welcome input to the contents of these suggestions, or any alternative suggestions that you may have.

I would also like to get some opinions on the tournament structure. For the last two years we have processed the draw by team. Is that the best way, or would it be better to draw each pool according to the performances of each individual?

Kevin,

Like the Later Western idea.
Like the Eastern idea ----would you include the likes of Turks/Hungarian.

cheers
Jim

How many lists are allowed Tercios?

Definitely by team... That's what has always made this competition unique, and it adds a bit more spice, and more team-level tactics to the weekend too

Thanks Jim and Tim.

Like the Eastern idea ----would you include the likes of Turks/Hungarian

Yes, I'm looking mainly at the cavalry based armies from Eastern Europe/Asia/North Africa. With a requirement to bring foot if you want artillery.

How many lists are allowed Tercios?

OK, you've got me on this one. I'd thought there were more, but it seems to boil down to:
Caroline Imperialist
Early Imperial Spanish
Later Imperial Austrian
Aviz Portugese

If I revise it to 2 GBG ETs or 3 LTs (no muskets) we could add in:
Later Venetian
Elizabethan English (If anyone can work out how their LTs deploy!)
Early 80 YW Dutch
Vasa Swedish
Later Imperial Spanish

If you think that's too restrictive, I'd welcome suggestions for an alternative pre-musket Western period.

For the last two years we have processed the draw by team. Is that the best way, or would it be better to draw each pool according to the performances of each individual?

Definitely by team... That's what has always made this competition unique, and it adds a bit more spice, and more team-level tactics to the weekend too

This is a tricky one. There's an argument that doing the draw by team allows a strong player in a weaker team to gain an unfair advantage in the individual competition. If we only had team prizes it would be easy, but I'm interested in other views. Last year the winners of all 3 pools came from teams that finished outside the top 2.

Ok,

I'm definately with Tim on this......Draw by team. It's a major attraction for me.

If that means a strong player in a supposed weak team gets a gong....so be it.
If that's really a big turn off...then drop the individual gong.

cheers
Jim

Can we drop the gong on someone?



Simon

I'm in

Time to do some Tercio painting

how many can I get for 800 points......

Drop the individual gongs would be my vote. To be honest, I wasn't even aware there were individual prizes handed out.

I agree with Tim and Jim. This is a team competition (and that's Derby's USP) and the awards should be to the teams. Maybe this year, to reinforce the team element, save money by dropping the individual prizes and instead award prizes to the first 3 teams and the individual winners just get a certificate.

Don

The prize policy is determined for the event as a whole, not each individual period. Personally, I like the idea of teams playing each other (and it's much easier to work out) but I am aware that some individuals have appeared to benefit from it and wanted to make sure that people were OK with it.

Interestingly, separate pools and team draws are a relatively recent innovation at Derby. Originally (in the WRG 7th, DBM and DBR days) it was an open tournament and all the players were in a single pool (sometimes of over 100 players) which had a single individual draw. You couldn't play anyone twice, or anyone from your own team. The team prizes were based on the 3 individual scores and there were always individual prizes, including a giant mounted samurai for the overall individual winner.

Haha- I was in the Renaissance World Team champions back in 1992! 38 players under Gush and I even finished individually 4th then!

Don

kevinj wrote:The prize policy is determined for the event as a whole, not each individual period. Personally, I like the idea of teams playing each other (and it's much easier to work out) but I am aware that some individuals have appeared to benefit from it and wanted to make sure that people were OK with it.

Interestingly, separate pools and team draws are a relatively recent innovation at Derby. Originally (in the WRG 7th, DBM and DBR days) it was an open tournament and all the players were in a single pool (sometimes of over 100 players) which had a single individual draw. You couldn't play anyone twice, or anyone from your own team. The team prizes were based on the 3 individual scores and there were always individual prizes, including a giant mounted samurai for the overall individual winner.

I definitely remember playing team on team under DBM (I think) with a Dave Roberts and Mick, which was back in 1999

There is even a report on my website...one of the very earliest!

I know wargamers are a conservative bunch, but describing the change to a team format as "relatively recent" when it must have been at least 15 years ago is maybe pushing things a little!

urbanbunny1 wrote:I'm in

Time to do some Tercio painting

how many can I get for 800 points......

Do I detect a lack of commitment from the Horse Meister in training?

Dave A(mazonian)

never

oooh

Shiney!

kevinj wrote: So far my thoughts are:

Early Western. Age of the Tercio. Armies must include at least two Early Tercio GBGs.

Later Western. TYW/ECW. I'd like to push this towards more balanced armies and my current thinking is along the lines restricting Superior (or elite) troops to the extent that both Mounted and Foot Superior/Elite BGs may not exceed the number of Average/Poor BGs of that type. e.g. to have 3 Superior Foot BGs you would need to have 3 Average/Poor Foot BGs, only counting battle troops, excluding Artillery/Commanded Shot.

Eastern. A cavalry based theme including the Poles/Tartars/Russians/Cossacks.

I propose:
Early Waestern: every list in west europe that has formed arquesbus and cannot take any musket.
Later Western: list that can't be in the former.
Eatern: all lists that can't be in the former.
So ALL lists can be choosed in one pool
Matteo

Early Western: This is an interesting idea, which might see armies using something other than Swiss keils (which seems to have become the norm in this sub-period). It would be nice if this could include English and Scots armies (which offer an interesting variant in their foot, but which can't have tercios).

Later Western: I like the restriction of a minimum proportion of average troops. IMO there are too many superior horse in most comps. Ideally I'd like to see minimum proportions of foot/horse, but I'd happily give this format a try and see what happens.

Eastern: I like the idea of making it something historical. Definitely disagree with the suggestion of allowing everything that doesn't come in pools 1 and 2.

There's no virtue in allowing all lists to be chosen. 'More choice' paradoxically means you end up with less real variety.

Martin

Are we any further forward on firming up these themes?

martinvantol wrote:There's no virtue in allowing all lists to be chosen. 'More choice' paradoxically means you end up with less real variety.

True, although you probably don't get more variety within the tournament by having tighter themes, but you do get more variety between one tournament and another - which is good.

I have submitted the theme details to the organisers and they, together with the other competition details, have now been published on the Derby website. Pool details are:

Pool 1. Age of the Tercio. 1534-1600. 850 Points max.
Covering the period where infantry evolved from Massed Pike to Pike and Shot. All armies must include at least either:
2 Early Tercio GBGs, 3 Late Tercio BGs or 1 Early Tercio BG/GBG and 2 Late Tercio BGs.
Battle troops armed with Musket are not allowed.
Permitted Armies:
Trade and Treachery: Caroline Imperialist, Later Venetian, Early Imperial Spanish, Elizabethan English, Early Eighty Years War Dutch.
Clash of Empires: Vasa Swedish, Later Imperial Austrian.
Cities of Gold: Aviz Portugese
Wars of Religion: Later Imperial Spanish.

Pool 2. Turmoil in Europe, the Thirty Years War (TYW) and English Civil War (ECW). 1618 – 1649. 800 Points max.
This pool is intended to include armies representative of the larger engagements, so no raiding forces or similar.
Armies must contain at least as many BGs of Average or Poor battle troops as there are Superior or Elite BGs for both Foot and Mounted categories. Artillery and Commanded Shot are not included for the purposes of this calculation.
Permitted Armies:
Wars of Religion: Any army except Early Louis XIV French and Scots Covenanters (Battle of Philiphaugh option) or Early ECW Royalist (1643 Rapid Raiding force option).

Pool 3. Horselords of the East. 1576 - 1698. 750 points max.
Including the principally cavalry based armies of Eastern Europe and the Near East from the effective establishment of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth until the end of the period covered by the rules .
Clash of Empires: Early Ottoman Turkish, Wallachian/Moldavian/Transylvanian, Tatar, Early Russian, Caucasian States, Safavid Persian, Cossack, Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, Later Ottoman Turkish.
Colonies and Conquest: Desert Bedouin, Settled Arab States.
Duty and Glory: Later Russian, Later Polish and Lithuanian, Habsburg Austrian Imperial (Relief of Vienna and aftermath option ONLY), Hungarian Kuruc Rebellion.

General Restrictions
Armies and the options chosen must be within the specified dates (inclusive) for the pool. Allies may be included from lists not specified but the overall army must still conform to any pool specific restriction.
For all pools the army must include 6 bases of Foot Battle troops (in BGs of 6 or greater) per base of Artillery.
Pool Points

Each pool has a nominal limit as shown above. However, players may donate up to 5 unused points to the other players in their team; e.g. A Pool 1 army is 844 points, the other players in that team may use 5 of those points in excess of the nominal maximum. No army may exceed the nominal limit by more than 10 points. No Team’s three armies may exceed 2400 points in total.

In Pool 2 Light Troops are included in the limitations? Since Artillery and Commanded Shot are not included, maybe It makes no sense including (i.e.) a unit of 4 light foot, or a unit of 2 Dragoons...