Slitherine

For the campaign scenario “Kursk Armory South”, the 6th scenario in Grand Campaign East, at Rommel difficulty level with Softcap activated, I would like to know whether the following force would be able to reap the maximum prestige points possible:

Infantry (Total 9)
Pionieres x 2 (OverStr 14)
Grenadiers 4 x (OverStr 14)
Gebirgsjager x 2 (OverStr 14)
Oleh Dir (OverStr 15)

Tanks (Total 13)
Panzer IV Ausf H x 7 (OverStr 14)
SE Panther Ausf D x 6 (OverStr 15)

Artillery (Total 10)
Hummel x 9 (OverStr 14)
Su-122 x 1 (Strength 10)

Aircraft (Total 14)
Fw-190A x 8 (OverStr 15)
Me-410A x 6 (OverStr 15)

Total units 40 + 6 SE (46)


This scenario allows only 40 core slots and with 6 SE units it boosts the total number of units deployable to 46. I’ve read the thread on prestige but I can’t figure out whether with this unit deployment, I would be able to get maximum prestige.

If not, could someone tell me what units I should leave out, so that I can qualify for max prestige at the end of this scenario? I have no units in my reserves that are less than OverStr 14 or of a different type than in my deploy list. Thanks in advance.

Maximum prestige in a given scenario usually involes a DV and makeing sure you units take as little damage as possible. I recently finished the grand campaign on Rommel and from my experience:

- Upgrade your SE units to Tiger 1 and later Tiger II. SE units do not effect the soft cap and even Panthers are still fine in 43, from 44 onwards they start to take substantiall damage
- The AI has an absurd amount of AA and Fighters which usually cost the most prestige even it's just from strafing. I usually run with 6 Fighters (3xFw-190 and 3xBF 190, 3 upgraded later to Me262A) and usally have 2 AA guns since the later scenarios have a more defensive character.
- Overstrengthing anyting apart from Infantry past a unit strength of 12 will drain your prestige like there is no tomorrow, especially past 43.
- Hummel AT guns have a really low AD of only 5. In my opinnion the siG are much better (AD 10).The StuG IV in an artillery role are good as well even with their range of 2
. Panzer IV take a lot of damage from IS-1 and all the other high caliber Soviet tanks which results in a heavy loss ox experience and rendering them useless real fast.

Dont want to come off as a douchebag here or anything, but what a BORING core force you have. Do people really play like this? 9 Hummel, 8 FW 190, 6 ME 410, absolutely no diversity You do realise there is an AT class right? This one is very good for dealing with the abundance of Russian armor that you will face, the Ferdinand(Elefant), STUG III, and later the Jagdpanther are always an important part of my core force. Also no strategic bombers? i always bring at least 2 for suppression and bringing down that pesky entrenchment prior to my assaults. Oh, and i am also a bit of a purist regarding stuff like this

(people play any way they want of course, i am just a wee bit interested in the reasons behind some decisions here)

I have found that experienced AT helps a lot in 43 and 44 East. A stug 3G with 4* has effective attack of 24 against hard targets, which will damage KV85 and IS1 pretty badly. Once you can get Elefants, the 24 HA + 2x the experience will cause a lot of harm even to IS2s. The Elefant in particular is well armoured and may be worth fully overstrengthing as it can often survive unharmed especially if you can keep it protected from air attacks. It still pays to suppress enemy armour before attacking with ATs as they usually have fairly poor initiative and losing a point or two gets expensive.

3 or 4* strategic bombers are good for suppressing surrounded IS2 and the other expensive units to help force a surrender - an important tactic at a stage of the game where prestige starts to disappear so quickly. I did reasonably well from some defensive positions where experienced infantry well backed by a lot of artillery (15cm and 17cm plus two 21cm nebelwerfers with range hero) would sit and wait until the heavy tanks entered the adjoining woodland. Once the conscripts and other attacking units pressed in behind, the arty would open up, supported by a strat bomber attack - if you track the suppression and attack prediction carefully you can almost guarantee destruction or surrender. I currently prefer a mix of artillery types - 15cm for ammo supply and if they don't cause damage they still remove entrenchment, 17cm to hit hard targets and cause casualties, nebelwerfers to suppress soft targets (they combine very good soft attack with a better rate of fire than most other arty), but a few months ago I was more in favour of consistency across units, so both approaches can work.

My only other advice is that if you trust your air defence tactics it might be worth fully overstrengthing any Tiger 2s with defence hero totalling 3 or more, as they are very hard to take points off, so although overstrength is expensive you hardly ever have to top it up.

jaggy wrote:For the campaign scenario “Kursk Armory South”, the 6th scenario in Grand Campaign East, at Rommel difficulty level with Softcap activated, I would like to know whether the following force would be able to reap the maximum prestige points possible:

Infantry (Total 9)
Pionieres x 2 (OverStr 14)
Grenadiers 4 x (OverStr 14)
Gebirgsjager x 2 (OverStr 14)
Oleh Dir (OverStr 15)

Tanks (Total 13)
Panzer IV Ausf H x 7 (OverStr 14)
SE Panther Ausf D x 6 (OverStr 15)

Artillery (Total 10)
Hummel x 9 (OverStr 14)
Su-122 x 1 (Strength 10)

Aircraft (Total 14)
Fw-190A x 8 (OverStr 15)
Me-410A x 6 (OverStr 15)

Total units 40 + 6 SE (46)


This scenario allows only 40 core slots and with 6 SE units it boosts the total number of units deployable to 46. I’ve read the thread on prestige but I can’t figure out whether with this unit deployment, I would be able to get maximum prestige.

If not, could someone tell me what units I should leave out, so that I can qualify for max prestige at the end of this scenario? I have no units in my reserves that are less than OverStr 14 or of a different type than in my deploy list. Thanks in advance.

Its very hard to calculate how much core you need to get 100% prestige rewards for any scenario. The basic rule is you get 100% if your average unit prestige cost is 400 or below. After that, the amount of prestige you earn gradually decreases as you go from 400 to 800 average prestige cost. At 800 average prestige cost or above you get the minimum prestige reward of just 20%. So having 600 prestige average unit cost might be something like 60% prestige reward.

Its hard to figure out where you are in average prestige cost during deployment as there in no in game indicator of this. Also, the average prestige cost of your core is recalculated at the start of each turn. So as you take losses during a scenario, you get gradually more prestige. Many, me included, would love to have this prestige soft cap level indicator feature. It will certainly enhance the fun experience of toying with ones deployed core.

But for the scenario you mention, if you want to find out how much force to deploy to get the maximum reward i suggest the following: Deploy your full core and save the game before clicking the end of turn button to start the scenario (you will be revisiting this save point multiple times). Now click the end turn to start and just take the nearest town to figure out how much prestige it rewards you (Spasskoye at 5,29). Towns give normally 50 prestige points if at 100% prestige level. Depending on how much prestige you got rewarded (should be anywhere from 10-50) you will know how much you should weaken your force to get to 100% prestige reward. So if you got 10 prestige out of taking that town, you know your average prestige cost is 800 or more and will need to deploy less units and or less costly units. If you got 50 prestige from taking the town you are already at the 100% maximum prestige reward you want. Now keep reloading to that save point and taking that town until you get rewarded a satisfying prestige amount (I will be happy with 30).

Looking at your core, the only thing making it expensive is the overstrength of costly non SE units. As mentioned by others, overstrengthening units beyond 12-13 is super costly and also counts to the prestige cap. But for particularly strong units and SE units, overstrength works wonders. I have to commend you on your luck of having 6 SE Panthers! (those dont affect your prestige cost, nice). Your airforce is very costly and to top it off they have overstrength of 15, wow. If you wanted to reduce the cost of deployed units perhaps you can leave a couple of this planes on reserve. If the soviet airforce is too powerful you can always bring the planes back in play or get a couple of cheap AA.

That said, getting maximum prestige is not essential. The trick is on determining the least amount of prestige cost of deployed units to guarantee a Decisive Victory and avoid losses. I say avoiding losses is the best prestige earner. Also having a stronger and more numerous core allows you to pocket units and get extra prestige from surrenders. I found out that obtaining quick air superiority is key to avoid constant losses, so im not too keen on my previous of recommendation to leave planes out.

Loki1942 wrote:Dont want to come off as a douchebag here or anything, but what a BORING core force you have. Do people really play like this? 9 Hummel, 8 FW 190, 6 ME 410, absolutely no diversity You do realise there is an AT class right? This one is very good for dealing with the abundance of Russian armor that you will face, the Ferdinand(Elefant), STUG III, and later the Jagdpanther are always an important part of my core force. Also no strategic bombers? i always bring at least 2 for suppression and bringing down that pesky entrenchment prior to my assaults. Oh, and i am also a bit of a purist regarding stuff like this

(people play any way they want of course, i am just a wee bit interested in the reasons behind some decisions here)

To avoid being a douchebag dont refer to peoples precious core force as BORING .

Although i agree with the rest of your post, especially having Strategic bombers, they are great for netting maximum prestige rewards from surrenders (supress all the strength without killing anything then attack with a recon or infantry for 0 damage).

@Resolute - I've successfully completed the Grand Campaigns on Rommel before. Where the prestige was more than adequate previously, with the softcap its a different situation ie. I'm low on prestige. I'm getting DVs and minimising damage to my own units but prestige is an issue now for me. My question is, will the deployed core units I outlined for the scenario earn me the maximum prestige available for that scenario? That is, how much prestige will I gain for that scenario if I manage to complete it. With the softcap deciding the formula I'm uncertain how much prestige I'll gain with this core force.

@Loki1942 - I'm not looking for diversity in my core force, I'm looking for the most efficient way to complete the mission. Anti-tank guns are a waste of time in my opinion. The only anti-tank I have are 2 captured Su-122 and the only reason why they are in my core is not because of their anti-tank but their artillery capabilities. Tactical bombers are way better than strategic bombers. I keep 2 strategic bombers around only because of all those enemy ships. I'll probably disband them for prestige after Kremenchug.

@captainjack - Appreciate the gameplay advice but I'm looking for how much prestige exactly my core force will earn after completing said scenario. Even after reading the thread on the softcap, I'm unsure as to what this core force composition will get. How much prestige will this unit deployment earn? Is it 2,000 or 1,800? Or if not the full prestige amount what is the percentage of the prestige. Is it 90%, 80% or 50% of the prestige in that scenario?

@antoniocapo - Thank you very much. Your post is exactly what I was looking for. I was doing OK till the start of '43 and because of the upgrades and overstrength, the prestige in these scenarios are now just a dribble. Also your suggestion is excellent, I wish I had thought of that. I appreciate your indepth explanation of how the softcap works and the work-around in figuring out the prestige for each scenario. Is there any possibility for the Panzer Corps developers (Rudankort?) to display the amount of prestige one can earn in a scenario with the current core force because its kind of hard to figure this out.

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it.

jaggy wrote:Is there any possibility for the Panzer Corps developers (Rudankort?) to display the amount of prestige one can earn in a scenario with the current core force because its kind of hard to figure this out.

I think someone more important than me should start a thread asking for this.

@antoniocapo - You are probably right. If I have time, I'll try and start a thread on current core force deployment and a visual display of prestige.

Apologies for my previous post - it was late at night and I got off topic.

I was thinking that at certain stages of the game experienced mobile AT are cheaper than tanks with equivalent hitting power and armour (Elefant is 600 compared with Tiger 2 at 900+), so you might be better able to keep under the experience cap without losing much in combat abilities. The same will sometimes hold true for AA compared with fighters.

The use of strategic bombers can also increase your ability to gain prestige. Even if surrender prestige is affected by the prestige cap (can somebody confirm this?), you will always get more prestige by forcing surrender than not.

@captainjack - No apologies necessary. I do appreciate the replies and advice from the various posters, yourself included. I've not played with the softcap before and now that I feel its effects in mid-1943, I realise that I have to change and work around the prestige limitations. The tank and anti-tank comparison you brought up is an excellent example. However, as I already have very little prestige, I'll have to make do with my current core force. When I replay the Grand Campaigns again, I'll definitely keep in mind that with the softcap:

1) You need to be very clear on your upgrade paths, delaying some or skipping upgrades if necessary.
2) Not to upgrade equipment or over-strength free Heroes if you are not going to use them (Exceptions for me are Oleh Dir and Rondorf).
3) Disband free Heroes and captured equipment you don't intend to use for prestige.
4) Not to upgrade equipment or overstrength all units to their maximum as it will limit your prestige.
5) Have a more balanced force, perhaps more mobile AT to keep under the experience cap.
6) Actively seek surrender situations whenever possible.

Having said this, with my style of play I'm not keen on strategic bombers as I feel the core slots for them are better put to use with other units.

jaggy wrote:@captainjack - No apologies necessary. I do appreciate the replies and advice from the various posters, yourself included. I've not played with the softcap before and now that I feel its effects in mid-1943, I realise that I have to change and work around the prestige limitations. The tank and anti-tank comparison you brought up is an excellent example. However, as I already have very little prestige, I'll have to make do with my current core force. When I replay the Grand Campaigns again, I'll definitely keep in mind that with the softcap:

1) You need to be very clear on your upgrade paths, delaying some or skipping upgrades if necessary.
2) Not to upgrade equipment or over-strength free Heroes if you are not going to use them (Exceptions for me are Oleh Dir and Rondorf).
3) Disband free Heroes and captured equipment you don't intend to use for prestige.
4) Not to upgrade equipment or overstrength all units to their maximum as it will limit your prestige.
5) Have a more balanced force, perhaps more mobile AT to keep under the experience cap.
6) Actively seek surrender situations whenever possible.

Having said this, with my style of play I'm not keen on strategic bombers as I feel the core slots for them are better put to use with other units.

Please dont disband the free heroes! They have great stat bonuses that will help you a lot on the long term. Keep them alive and build their experience, you will be nicely rewarded. Im playing the West DLC campaign and my starting core of 9 units was almost all heroes. They are all 5 stars now and heading into boats for SeaLion 45. And dont worry, there are no strategic bomber heroes.

Another way to get lots of surrenders if you dont like the strategic bombers is with a combination of recon and artillery (very cheap units too) . Lots of artillery to supress and the recon to surround the unit temporarily and then hit it and run back to a safer place. But looking at your core, your artillery is all Hummels and those dont have a great impact on heavy tanks, which are the juiciest surrender prestige. Maybe you should acquire a few extra 17cm or 21cm towed artillery, you can never have too much artillery. Also, any Hummel you have with a move +1 hero would be a great unit to convert to the harder hitting 17cm or 21cm. The move +1 on towed artillery is overpowered as it can move 2 spaces unloaded even if both spaces are rough terrain (2 mountains or 2 forests for example).

Another big prestige saver is to remove all transports from your move 3+ infantry. It saves you on replacement costs and also brings down the average prestige of your core. As a nice little bonus, your infantry is never again weak on the buttery tranports. Also on bad weather transported units run out of fuel! I had no problem at all in West Campaign with all my infantry on foot. But i had to be very strategic on deployment and routes of advance so as not to have stragglers. There is always trains and planes (no automobiles) to make a huge move if you get an infantry too far behind. Having a move +1 hero on an infantry unit is huge, and those could be converted to Grenadiers ( i got no move +1 this time except Oleh Dir )

But your core really looks strong to beat any scenario. Maybe you can yet win it all. Deploy a little less units and/or replace costlier ones with AT and AA and dont replace the overstrength losses and eventually you will start netting prestige again after every mission. You will eventually need to upgrade all those Panzer IV's..ugh costly.

What a fun challenge you have

@antoniocapo - Your West DLC starting core of 9 units with heroes are not transferred from the East DLC, right? I mean you started the West DLC without importing from a previous core? The Hummels don't have much of an impact on tanks. I thought of upgrading them to Nebelwerfers but I can forget about upgrading anything for a while now.

That's a good suggestion about removing transport from infantry. To upgrade 1 Panzer IVH to Panther D OverStrengthed to 15 will cost 1,309 prestige. And that is just 1 Panzer IVH! I don't even have 200 prestige, much less 1,000.

I really got to admit Panzer Corps is really a lot of fun. I was playing "Soldiers: Heroes of World War II" for a while as it cost only US$2.99 when I bought it from GOG.com. Its a nice game but I will always gravitate back to Panzer Corps.

Yes it is an imported core of heroes from the east DLC 39-41. From the following list i imported all (8/9) except the scout Rudel. Also imported 4 SE tank units. I love my heroes, they feel special and give a little RPG flavor.

DLC `39
=========

POZNAN:
Second Lieutenant Rudel / Ju 87B / Att: -5, Def: -2, Spt: +2 / Exp: 0, Str: 10 / Turn: 2

LODZ:
Oleh Dir / Gebirgsjaeger / Ini: +3, Mov: +3 / Exp: 50, Str: 10 / Turn: 2

MODLIN:
Albert Kerscher / Panzer 38(t)A / Att: +2, Def: +2, Spt: +2 / Exp: 50, Str: 10 / Turn: 2

SPOILS OF WAR:
Helmut Lent / Bf 110C / Att: +1, Ini: +6 / Exp: 75, Str: 10 / Turn: 2

=========
DLC `40
=========

SEDAN:
Heinrich Bar / Bf 109E / Att: +2, Def: +1, Ini: +2 / Exp: 50, Str: 10 / Turn: 4

=========
DLC `41
=========

MINSK41:
Hans-Ulrich Rudel / Ju 87B / Att: +9, Def: +9, Mov: +1 / Exp: 200, Str: 12 / Turn: 2

SMOLENSK41:
Helmut Wirnsberger / Gebirgsjaeger (SE SdKfz 250/1) / Att: +2, Ini: +3 / Exp: 120, Str: 11 / Turn: 3
Heinz Rondorf / Panzer IIC / Att. +1, Def: +1, Ini: +2, Mov: +1, Spt: +1 / Exp: 120, Str: 11 / Turn: 3

STREETS OF MOSCOW:
Otto Kittel / Bf 109F / Att: +3, Def: -2, Ini: +2 / Exp: 145, Str: 11 / Turn: 2

I don't have DLC West yet but I understand the emphasis needs to be on infantry, artillery and aircraft. If I do get DLC West, I will definitely import my core.

jaggy wrote:I don't have DLC West yet but I understand the emphasis needs to be on infantry, artillery and aircraft. If I do get DLC West, I will definitely import my core.

German tanks have a field day on the weak Allied armor and are practically unstoppable in the open. But i rely mostly on a huge artillery wing (30% of core) and it works beautifully. I use very little infantry (6/38) and had no problems because the artillery barrages make its that a tank can attack in close terrain with no losses. Besides Oleh Dir and Helmut Weisenberger are a 2 man army. I usually deploy one of each into my 2 fronts of advance.