Slitherine

Refitting units seems hideously expensive - more expensive than purchasing the updated unit from scratch, in some cases! I suppose the idea is that the unit keeps its experience level, but still... it seems excessive - and it must be considered that the level at which you can train units out of the barracks increases as time goes on, as well, which lowers the value of refitting. For these reasons, I think refit costs should be lowered - it should have a cost to be something you do to update your army to current tech level (similar to games like Civilization) rather than something you can only use on your über-promoted level 10 generals.

What exactly is the formula for the cost of refitting units? My suggestion would be to have it close to (rushbuy cost of updated unit) - (rushbuy cost of old unit).

I think it's (rushbuy cost of new equipment) - (1/4 rushbuy cost of discarded equipment). I don't think there'd be any problems with your suggestion of the old unit being fully refunded.

I usually end up just producing new units because I use all my credits to rush buildings in non-production cities. Very obsolete units become city guards, and slightly-obsolete troops are used for suicide missions/scouting/mopping up. Occasionally might upgrade a high-level unit but units gain XP very quickly with a mix of buildings, FT and combat so it's not usually a big deal.

My Obsolete troops always act like a reserve force in keeping. They keep cities safe from being drop podded by a single trooper. Unless I have plenty of credits to upgrade them all they will stay in reserve as I build the new units. Plus it's not really that bad at all when a world become almost fully developed then you will have crazy income.

And I still haven't built the credit forges ingame yet.. In that game i'm at 303k credit while making 6k a turn. <_< While enjoying a hefty mineral loss of 148 a turn.

I think your cities is probably underdeveloped if refitting is that expensive. xD

fortydayweekend wrote:I think it's (rushbuy cost of new equipment) - (1/4 rushbuy cost of discarded equipment). I don't think there'd be any problems with your suggestion of the old unit being fully refunded.

I usually end up just producing new units because I use all my credits to rush buildings in non-production cities. Very obsolete units become city guards, and slightly-obsolete troops are used for suicide missions/scouting/mopping up. Occasionally might upgrade a high-level unit but units gain XP very quickly with a mix of buildings, FT and combat so it's not usually a big deal.

Yeah human player will find all kind of use for old units and usually it is rare you absolutely need to refit.

However I agree with Apheirox, refitting should not be so expensive, especially for the AI. As I mentionned in another thread, AI will keep loads of obsolete troops and will often make a very poor challenge to beat as It is very easy to have a massive unit quality advantage.

An option I would love to see in the game would be to able to 'reproduce' the unit, meaning that instead of paying credit you would park the unit in the city and use city production to upgrade it, the cost in mineral being the difference between the actual unit and the wanted upgraded unit. That would make much more easy to keep an army at your current technology level and AI could sink some productions in upgrading their unit instead of spamming low quality units.

boulugre wrote:
Yeah human player will find all kind of use for old units and usually it is rare you absolutely need to refit.

However I agree with Apheirox, refitting should not be so expensive, especially for the AI. As I mentionned in another thread, AI will keep loads of obsolete troops and will often make a very poor challenge to beat as It is very easy to have a massive unit quality advantage.

An option I would love to see in the game would be to able to 'reproduce' the unit, meaning that instead of paying credit you would park the unit in the city and use city production to upgrade it, the cost in mineral being the difference between the actual unit and the wanted upgraded unit. That would make much more easy to keep an army at your current technology level and AI could sink some productions in upgrading their unit instead of spamming low quality units.

That kinda sounds good to me o.o

boulugre wrote:An option I would love to see in the game would be to able to 'reproduce' the unit, meaning that instead of paying credit you would park the unit in the city and use city production to upgrade it, the cost in mineral being the difference between the actual unit and the wanted upgraded unit. That would make much more easy to keep an army at your current technology level and AI could sink some productions in upgrading their unit instead of spamming low quality units.

I like that idea too, it would mean more things for cities to build. Basically a refit that you can queue up and pay in production for. Or it could be an operation (upgrade 1 chassis level and then refit weapons etc as normal). Or an infinite producible paying into a separate "refit-only" fund at a higher rate than Wealth.

fortydayweekend wrote:I think it's (rushbuy cost of new equipment) - (1/4 rushbuy cost of discarded equipment). I don't think there'd be any problems with your suggestion of the old unit being fully refunded.

When I wrote that refitting costs more than purchasing a new unit I meant that literally so fortyday's formula is wrong or I ran into a bug. If refit cost was as fortyday suggested that would be sensible but it doesn't appear to be the case (I have multiple cases of refit costs being higher than rushbuy costs, doesn't look like a bug).

boulugre wrote: An option I would love to see in the game would be to able to 'reproduce' the unit, meaning that instead of paying credit you would park the unit in the city and use city production to upgrade it, the cost in mineral being the difference between the actual unit and the wanted upgraded unit. That would make much more easy to keep an army at your current technology level and AI could sink some productions in upgrading their unit instead of spamming low quality units.

I don't understand the motivation for this -isn't it enough being able to refit with credits? (if credit costs were more reasonable, that is!)

Overall, based on your responses it sounds like you don't think it's such a big deal refits costs are wonky. However, if they weren't then it would actually be possible for the AI to refit and keep up in tech so I think it's something that deserves a second look.

Apheirox wrote:

fortydayweekend wrote:I think it's (rushbuy cost of new equipment) - (1/4 rushbuy cost of discarded equipment). I don't think there'd be any problems with your suggestion of the old unit being fully refunded.

When I wrote that refitting costs more than purchasing a new unit I meant that literally so fortyday's formula is wrong or I ran into a bug. If refit cost was as fortyday suggested that would be sensible but it doesn't appear to be the case (I have multiple cases of refit costs being higher than rushbuy costs, doesn't look like a bug).

boulugre wrote: An option I would love to see in the game would be to able to 'reproduce' the unit, meaning that instead of paying credit you would park the unit in the city and use city production to upgrade it, the cost in mineral being the difference between the actual unit and the wanted upgraded unit. That would make much more easy to keep an army at your current technology level and AI could sink some productions in upgrading their unit instead of spamming low quality units.

I don't understand the motivation for this -isn't it enough being able to refit with credits? (if credit costs were more reasonable, that is!)

Overall, based on your responses it sounds like you don't think it's such a big deal refits costs are wonky. However, if they weren't then it would actually be possible for the AI to refit and keep up in tech so I think it's something that deserves a second look.

I do think refitting should be made easier for the reason stated above. That Beeing done by lowering the cost in credit or enabling refitting by production would both work. However if I could choose I would prefer to be able to do it trouhgt reproducing in cities. It seems more realistic plus if you have large number of unit to refit you will most probably have to leave your cities in credit productions for a certain number if turn to be able to afford anyway.

You know, you can refit by production, by using wealth system.

player1 wrote:You know, you can refit by production, by using wealth system.

Yeah I realize that, but as pointed out in this thread the current cost of refitting makes it unpractical to do army wide upgrades, leaving plenty of old unit around and clogging AI army composition.

The reasons I think that production refitting would be a nice feature are the following :


- You wont necessarily be rich during your game, so being unable to refit because you are poor is a shame.
- It would enable to switch much easily one unit type to another, so lets say i have anti INF tank sitting in your town, an enemy plane shows up you can react quicker and refit it with your city.
- Yes you can leave your city to produce wealth and then buy, but IMO seems to makes more sense to directly upgrade them.
- I think credit refitting should be more expansive than production refitting, as basically when you rush buy something you outsource it ( to a private company or another faction ) so it make sense it should be more expensive than if you do it yourself. Credit buying should still be an option but be expensive and reserved for emergency situations

++1

I still disagree with production refitting - I think it downplays the role of credits too much then (in a game where, like in many 4x games, 'credits' already serve a secondary role only). Regardless of what's settled on, I hope something gets done about the too high refit costs.

I'm not too worried about it either way... as long as I can refit them. I feel there are much more effective ways to improve the game (in its current state).

Refitting feels quite cheap to me... any specific examples of refits you find too expensive?

Apheirox wrote:. For these reasons, I think refit costs should be lowered - it should have a cost to be something you do to update your army to current tech level (similar to games like Civilization) rather than something you can only use on your über-promoted level 10 generals.

I'm not sure what Civilization game you're referring to, but upgrading your units in Civ 4 is certainly not cheap. Only my best units get upgrades, the rest end up just being cannon fodder. I just can't afford to upgrade all of them, at least not until the very last part of the game. I have no problem with the upgrade costs in this game, though I agree that the AI should get some sort of bonus to ensure it's troops prove to be a challenge later on. In Civ 4, the AI got a 50% reduction in upgrade costs, I think the same thing should be applied in Pandora.