Slitherine

Did anyone play with chariotry , especially heavy chariots . I would like to know how they did perform ?

I noticed people complaining of the strenght of KN units, saying they are too strongh and that medieval armies had an advantage against antique armies . But after having a clooser look, it seems to me hat chariots are very though opponents as well . They got 2 dice on impact and melee . On impact, KN has + POA vs LCH, but none against HCH . In melee, A heavy chariot is also equal to a KN as the KN will generally benefit from the Swordsmen POA and the HCH from the HCH POA, armour being ignored !, and KN will only have + POA against LCH

So antique armies still seem to have some usefull tricks . And I wonder, if antique armies have so much difficulties against KN, what will they do against HCH ? I admitt against foot HCH are a bit less performant than KN , but still they are formidable foes ( LCH also )

I must say in the two games I've scene them in historical matches it didn't seem odd, but that was early on in the playing process for me. Sounds like a good option to try again and find out.

I have used hvy chariots as part of my Indian army and find them quite effective although I would keep them away from knights. As with the elephants they take the pressure off the bow and giv ethe opponent something to think about.
John

I don't know if we have the same refsheets, but mine state that HCh are at net - PoA against Lancers of all kinds in the open. In melee, they cancel the Knight's armour and then it depends whether they are swordsmen as well if there are any net PoAs. Since in the army lists I've seen so far there are no HCh with the swordsmen PoA, then I think chariots are still in trouble against knights.

I agree with Carlos.

Yes - Chariots are a POA down against all lancers - at impact.
They should be OK in melee.

Basically HCH are good in period, but start to suffer against better quality cavalry of later periods.
They're still very good value for the points though - given the 2 dice they get in melee.

On impact, the KN are strongher, but in melee, the KN swordsmen has +POA and receives nothing for better armor, the HCH receives a +POA against any except vs skirmishers, EL,BWG or steady Pk/SP I see no other POA so they are equal HCH vs KN ( in melee ) or did I forget something ? and most HCH are also superior in the lists I have .

So HCH can still- if they survive impact, be a fierce opponent for KN, even heavil armored ones

carlos wrote:I don't know if we have the same refsheets, but mine state that HCh are at net - PoA against Lancers of all kinds in the open. In melee, they cancel the Knight's armour and then it depends whether they are swordsmen as well if there are any net PoAs. Since in the army lists I've seen so far there are no HCh with the swordsmen PoA, then I think chariots are still in trouble against knights.

HCh have a + POA in melee against suitable opponents, which compensates for not having swordsmen POA. We did not want to get into complexities of crew armament.

Therefore they are down 1 POA in the Impact phase vs knights, but equal to them in melee. This seems a pretty good deal to me, considering they are a lot cheaper than knights and most of them can also shoot.

The only obvious problem is that for small BGs losing the impact is pretty bad. If all dice rolls are average, then they'll likely lose a chariot on impact and I'm afraid they'll never recover after that. Best way to try it is to put some on the table and give them a go I guess.

The only time I faced HCh I charged 4 Cavalry lancers into them and, unsurprisingly, won impact. This caused 1 failed death roll and a failed cohesion test. After that the cavalry was in good shape against the chariots, rolling same amount of dice but farther from autobreaking or going down to broken.

Dear Carlos,

Just as I wrote, HCH ( and CV vs KN ) must first survive impact . You can also choose to aither line them up in one long line or line them 2 deep . they loose some "impetus" but on the long run, with deepth, they gain "resistance" during melee as the first losses do not affect their melee capacity .

Of course this is theoritical . terrain, luck, tactics, initiative, all of those also have tobe aken into account .

Just come back to this thread after a game with my Indians last night.

You will understand my shock when I discovered the -POA against lancers

Fortunately GREAT dice throwing got me out of jail

Game plays extremely well, just need the diagrams to sort out a couple of interactions.

Don

bahdahbum wrote:Did anyone play with chariotry , especially heavy chariots . I would like to know how they did perform ?

I've played a few biblical era games lately and chariots seem to be modelled well to me (much better than in DBM, for example). Ch are decent shooters against other mounted and LCh ability to evade makes them OK skirmishers too - they can chase off LH and avoid Kn.

HCh are OK in combat, LCh need to pick their fights with care. All chariots are rather fragile - they usually operate in small BGs 1 deep and any base losses HURT. In my games, chariot BGs tend to wither away from base losses, rather than from taking cohesion hits.

John

Chariot armies are excellent in my view. Proof of this was Assyrians coming second in the open list test comp at Britcon lst year. I have used Hittites and Indians considerably.

Out of period it may feel like Kn army has the edge and it does in a stright charge have a + at impact. But that is all they have. A lot of the best HCH are Sup and have Bw to. So chances to DISR on the way in - usually 2 shots with re-rolls on the hits making the difference. Chariots are some of the bests sup shooters for the money. So for the same price as a HARM Kn you get HCH with Bw. Its a close call which is better.

Also biblical armies often have lots of filler allowing you more chariots than medievals have knights at 800 pts. My Hittite army had 16 HCh and still enough points for lots fo foot troops. Give me a table with ueneven or rough terrain and the medievals will find that everything other than their knights are under threat.

So yeah 4 vs 4 the Knights have a bit of an edge but a battle isn't won by winning two local combats in FOG.

Si