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Elephant versus cavalry
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:52 am
by hcaille
Hi
After a game this week end, i have some remark about the combat between elephants and cavalry.
It seems to me that the elephant doesn't have a big advantage versus mounted. In impact and melee El have a +POA and disorder the Cv so they loose 1 dice for 3. As the cavalry is almost always Superior, the difference is not very important
Take a BG of 6 Cv Armoured Superior Lancers Swordsmen versus a BG of 2 El
The Cv have 4 dice at 5+ and reroll 1
The El have 4 dice at 4+
So it is only a tiny advantage for the elephant
I think that El versus shock mounted should have a bigger advantage like a ++POA.
What do you think about it ?
Hervé
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:09 pm
by Empgamer
There will be others far more familiar with FOG (which I am still learning) but but aren't the Cav also automatically Disordered for being within 1 base width of Elephants? (Did edit this as I notice you had got the disordered factored in). The El also cause a -1 modifier for CTs when an enemy loses a close combat to them (P.70).
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:11 pm
by spike
Empgamer wrote:There will be others far more familiar with FOG (which I am still learning) but aren't the Cav also automatically Disordered for being within 1 base width of Elephants?
I reported this in the beta test period, but the writing team believed any further change would overbalance it too far in the elephant's favour
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:14 pm
by carlos
You are describing a CV unit that costs twice as much as the Elephants (96 pts if undrilled). I don't expect the Elephants to have that BIG an advantage, but they should win. Let's look at odds...
Impact
Elephants - 4 dice at 4+ (average 2 hits)
CV - 3 dice at 5+ (you can only make contact w/ 2 stands) w/ reroll on 1 (average 1.16 hits)
If CV lose (likely), they have to test at -2 (number of hits, losing against elephants).
Melee
Elephants - 4 dice at 4+ (avg 2 hits)
CV - 4 dice at 5+ w/ rerolls (average 1.5 hits)
Who do you think has the advantage here?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:30 pm
by hcaille
You are right, the elephant have the advantage, but it is not a strong advantage and they are likely to loose the combat.
It was the case in our last game :
There is 4 Cv who where already disrupted by shooting. I attack it with 2 elephants (the disorder have no effect as the Cv is already disrupted).
On the impact, each BG take one hit so it's a draw.
During the melee i manage to have 2 other BG fighting in overlap.
Cv : Have 2 hit on elephants
El : No hit
Supporting troops on overlap : 2 hits
So the only BG wich have to make a cohesion test is the El :
- 1 for losing the melee
- 1 for suffering 2 more hit than inflicted
- 1 for lossing against lancer
+ 1 for General in LOC
Total -2 so i need a 9 on two dice for not being disrupted
And if i roll a "1" on my death roll my BG of elephant is destroy !
This combat make me think that El are very brittle even againt Cv lancers. In DBM (apologize
) if you attack Kn(F) with Elephant you are almost sure to win and certain not to loose : it was absolutely not the same in FoG. I'm used to consider that elephants are the killer of Knight or other Cv with lance (shock troop). I wonder how a Lancer can charge an Elephant with a scared horse and hope to kill it ?
I think the current factor are ok if we consider Cv with bow, javelin or light lance as they can attack the Elephant with distance weapons but in the case of lancers it is difficult to imagine how they can fight against El ...
Hervé
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:42 pm
by carlos
Well, you had terrible dice so it's hard to use your example as proof that there is something wrong w/ the rules. As for quoting DBM to make a point, you are in the wrong place to do it
As others have already said in other topics, FoG is not as "easy" as DBM. In DBM you knew that El always killed Kn and WWg, that Art always killed El and WWG, etc. In FoG the odds are stacked against certain troops but the fact that there is no quick-kill means there is more randomness to the results. So next time, make sure your elephants are well supported (maybe put a general w/ them for the rerolls) and they should do fine.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:06 pm
by hammy
In DBM if you attack Kn with El and concede a double overlap there is a decent chance you will get a dead elephant.
I have taken out lone El with Kn on more than one occasion in DBM, it is after all a 4-3 combat. Why should a doubly overlapped elephant be better in FoG?
In a straight combat with no overlaps the El are favourites to win. They should win the impact 4 dice at + vs 3 at - with a reroll and the resulting CT for the cavalry will be at at least -2 if not -3. If the cavalry started DISR that will give you a very good chance of getting them to FRG.
I suggest you refight the combat in question say 10 times and see how many the elephants win. My guess is that they will win more than half and possibly more like 8 times out of 10. I think you were just unlucky.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:14 pm
by nikgaukroger
hcaille wrote:
During the melee i manage to have 2 other BG fighting in overlap.
Cv : Have 2 hit on elephants
El : No hit
Supporting troops on overlap : 2 hits
So the only BG wich have to make a cohesion test is the El :
- 1 for losing the melee
- 1 for suffering 2 more hit than inflicted
- 1 for lossing against lancer
+ 1 for General in LOC
Just to note I assume for the first -1 you mean 1HP3B from close combat as there is no -1 for just losing the melee (although as noted in another topic you usually do suffer 1HP3B when losing) and also in the melee phase you cannot get the -1 for losing against Lancers as that only applies in the Impact phase.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:21 pm
by hammy
nikgaukroger wrote:hcaille wrote:
During the melee i manage to have 2 other BG fighting in overlap.
Cv : Have 2 hit on elephants
El : No hit
Supporting troops on overlap : 2 hits
So the only BG wich have to make a cohesion test is the El :
- 1 for losing the melee
- 1 for suffering 2 more hit than inflicted
- 1 for lossing against lancer
+ 1 for General in LOC
I hadn't looked at this in detail but you are right Nik, it looks like a few things have been miscalculated.
First from the glossary elephants count each base as 2 for the purpose of calculating 1HP3B so 2 bases of elephants need 3 hits to force 1HP3B.
Second the lancer mod is at impact only
Third a general can only give a CT bonus for a BG in close combat if he is actually with that BG.
I suspect that this test should have been at a nett -1 for losing by 2 hits and all the other modifiers were not appropriate.
In order to get this test the elephats had to miss four times needing a 4+ which is a 1 in 16 event.
Elephants are good but they need to be supported. If you send them off alone they can be beaten.
Just to note I assume for the first -1 you mean 1HP3B from close combat as there is no -1 for just losing the melee (although as noted in another topic you usually do suffer 1HP3B when losing) and also in the melee phase you cannot get the -1 for losing against Lancers as that only applies in the Impact phase.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:27 pm
by nikgaukroger
Er, Hammy, 2 hits on a BG counting as 4 bases is 1HP2B so must be at least 1 HP3B mustn't it?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:35 pm
by hcaille
hammy wrote:In DBM if you attack Kn with El and concede a double overlap there is a decent chance you will get a dead elephant.
I have taken out lone El with Kn on more than one occasion in DBM, it is after all a 4-3 combat. Why should a doubly overlapped elephant be better in FoG?
In a straight combat with no overlaps the El are favourites to win. They should win the impact 4 dice at + vs 3 at - with a reroll and the resulting CT for the cavalry will be at at least -2 if not -3. If the cavalry started DISR that will give you a very good chance of getting them to FRG.
I suggest you refight the combat in question say 10 times and see how many the elephants win. My guess is that they will win more than half and possibly more like 8 times out of 10. I think you were just unlucky.
It was the Cv that suffer overlap, not the elephant
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:43 pm
by hcaille
Hi
Just some corrections about the CT factors :
- The elephants suffer 2 hits and count as 4 bases so -1 for 1HP3B
- The general is with the elephant so +1 apply
- There is no -1 for the lancer capability as it is only applied in impact (mea culpa
)
Hervé
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:55 pm
by rbodleyscott
Just to put this discussion in perspective, there are accounts of mounted ghilman cavalry defeating elephants in India.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:16 pm
by hazelbark
In fact Indian lance armed cavalry trained specifically to attack and kill elephants.
I think a dynamic as others have pointed out is DBM tactics versus FoG tactics. In DBM anchoring the end of the line with Elephants is entirely conceivable and possibly wise. But in FoG the elephants are, I think, more valuable in the center.
Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:21 am
by petedalby
The general is with the elephant so +1 apply
So you really were unlucky! 4 dice, hitting on 4's and re-rolling 1's, but still no hits.
I bet you threw the '1' for the death roll too?
Pete
Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:50 am
by nikgaukroger
The nellies would only reroll if the general was fighting - IIRC for CT purposes he can be with the BG even if he is not fighting which may have been the case here.
Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:03 am
by hcaille
Yes, the genral is not fighting with the elephant. The +1 apply only to CT.
Hervé