Slitherine

I am aware that the Grand Campaign and Afrika Korps features magically spawning enemy where the AI receives units out of thin air and in that same turn they receive those units, they can immediately move and attack with them. This is a bad feature. They should have at least one turn where they can't move, just like when the player purchases a unit and places it, it can't instantly move.

To make that "feature" even worse, in Afrika Corps' Palestine scenario in turn 9, the AI receives 3 free advanced spitfires. And it spawns basically in the middle of the map. I know this because I have armies around that spot. Immediately after spawning, all three of them ganged on my Bf110G tac bomber that has 3 stars and 12 strength. It was sitting in the airfield next to Jerusalem. It should have been able to take care of itself but being attacked by 3 spitfires, it was pretty much dead.

It is very frustrating because that tac bomber died to 3 magically appearing spitfires, pretty much in my own territory. If I have lost the tac bomber due to, maybe, careless positioning, it's probably alright. However these spawning spitfires are ridiculous. Unless you know it is coming, it is likely you will lose a tac bomber. Sure I could have guarded it with a fighter but I had cleared the skies and it was over strengthened to 12 with 3 stars. Pretty much a powerful unit that should have been take care of itself under no non-sense situation.

I really hope the magically appearing AI units gets fixed by giving them one turn down time where they can't do anything. Another alternative is to move the spawn location far away to the edges of the map but this still may cause this kind of shenanigans to happen if the player has a unit close to the spawn location.

As far as I'm aware, the rules on new units and pre-programmed reinforcements differ, but are the same for both AI and player.

Where the player or AI buys a new unit, these cannot be used in the turn that they are placed - except the player can buy and place them any time in his turn while the AI buys and places them at the end of its turn. This gives the other side a full turn to spot and attack them before they do anything.

Where pre-programmed reinforcements are concerned, they arrive at the beginning of the turn and are ready for immediate use - this is the same for both AI and player.

If you use the scenario editor, you can check for those spawning A/C. This exact "feature" is exactly what got me started doing that. I now do it before each scenario, kinda like pre-battle intelligence.

Yup, there are several scenario's with this kind of annoyance built in. Not only does the AI not need a city or airport to spawn such units, but using them at the same turn they are spawning is just adding insult to injury. It actually made me reconsider my purchase of the few remaining DLC's I hadn't acquired yet when I first encountered it.

Spawns out of cities are possible, especially if there is AI counterattack. If you ask me weather there is logic in that I would say no. Off map reinforcements make some kind of logic, but in the middle of map spawns just cannot be explained. That is why you have to accept that this is the game, you reload the turn and try again. These kind of cheap tricks along with countless AI reinforcements are almost the only way AI can score larger losses to an experienced player who plays cautiously. Accept it for what it is, and maybe better AI would reduce need for these kind of things.

As far as I can figure, the logic to having these counter-attack reinforcements appear mid-game is to prevent the player's air units from shooting and bombing them to oblivion long before their activation is triggered.

@sauvequipeut: yes they are different but they should be the same even for the player. New units appearing on the map should not be immediately able to move and attack. I'm fine with spawning new units to simulate reinforcements. However these reinforcements actually came in the middle of the map, where my troops were.

@tmiranda: forced to check the triggers on every possible reinforcement in the map before the game starts is not very fun.

@Shrike: the grand campaign does this but from memory, none of them is as bad as the gang of 3 advanced spitfires in the AK Palestine scenario.

@timek28: unfortunately my last save was 4 turns ago and replaying it was not the nicest thing to do. The problem is that it doesn't have to be a cheap trick. Have them spawn around the edges of the map and wait for a turn to move. It is fairly simple and much more fair. If the player's recons don't see them, then it's his fault. However having them spawn in the middle of the map and immediately attacks a unit in the player's rear is not fun, it's frustrating.

Well, I had more of an issue with it in the West branch of the GC. just don't push too hard when you get to Messina (see viewtopic.php?f=121&t=38321).

kucing wrote: @timek28: unfortunately my last save was 4 turns ago and replaying it was not the nicest thing to do. The problem is that it doesn't have to be a cheap trick. Have them spawn around the edges of the map and wait for a turn to move. It is fairly simple and much more fair. If the player's recons don't see them, then it's his fault. However having them spawn in the middle of the map and immediately attacks a unit in the player's rear is not fun, it's frustrating.

That is why I proposed auto-save on move that player decides (every second or third for example). For me quicksave button would also be a good thing,..

On the other part of the remark I didn't exactly experience what you are saying. I experienced spawns inside FOW but not outside FOW as you did. This probably means that you reconed far into enemy territory. I believe that spawns should work relative to the closest players unit, so that AI unit comes out of FOW not out of visible terrain. If AI units comes out of FOW for me that is perfectly acceptable and realistic. And if player is near the edge of map then AI should spawn "off map" (usually spawns are on the last hexes on the map edge).

So IMO what you experienced is probably a design bug (designers didn't put the parameter that AI should spawn units out of players sighting range).

I've had the unpleasant Messina experience, with the AI spawning units amongst my own units and attacking that turn - it made me quite agitated at the time.
I prefer the idea pf troops entering from a direction, but if they must appear inside my formations, they should be suppressed or otherwise unable to attack on the turn they arrive.

kucing wrote:the grand campaign does this but from memory, none of them is as bad as the gang of 3 advanced spitfires in the AK Palestine scenario.

Remember Wassigny from GC'40? Personally, I don't like units appearing literally on top of my units, especially when I 'secured' the area. The added problem with the planes is that they can move pretty far and can strike almost anything. In this case maybe the spawning units could be set to be defensive the first turn, but that would ruin the surprise of course...

ThvN wrote:

kucing wrote:the grand campaign does this but from memory, none of them is as bad as the gang of 3 advanced spitfires in the AK Palestine scenario.

Remember Wassigny from GC'40? Personally, I don't like units appearing literally on top of my units, especially when I 'secured' the area. The added problem with the planes is that they can move pretty far and can strike almost anything. In this case maybe the spawning units could be set to be defensive the first turn, but that would ruin the surprise of course...

Now I remember that scenario. I was really shocked because I cleaned the map and expected the mentioned counter attack to come from those units.

Shrike wrote:Well, I had more of an issue with it in the West branch of the GC. just don't push too hard when you get to Messina (see viewtopic.php?f=121&t=38321).

Oh yes that one too.

Ok it seems I am mistaken, the grand campaign also contains those horrendously magically spawning and poorly placed enemies.

timek28 wrote:

kucing wrote: @timek28: unfortunately my last save was 4 turns ago and replaying it was not the nicest thing to do. The problem is that it doesn't have to be a cheap trick. Have them spawn around the edges of the map and wait for a turn to move. It is fairly simple and much more fair. If the player's recons don't see them, then it's his fault. However having them spawn in the middle of the map and immediately attacks a unit in the player's rear is not fun, it's frustrating.

That is why I proposed auto-save on move that player decides (every second or third for example). For me quicksave button would also be a good thing,..

On the other part of the remark I didn't exactly experience what you are saying. I experienced spawns inside FOW but not outside FOW as you did. This probably means that you reconed far into enemy territory. I believe that spawns should work relative to the closest players unit, so that AI unit comes out of FOW not out of visible terrain. If AI units comes out of FOW for me that is perfectly acceptable and realistic. And if player is near the edge of map then AI should spawn "off map" (usually spawns are on the last hexes on the map edge).

So IMO what you experienced is probably a design bug (designers didn't put the parameter that AI should spawn units out of players sighting range).

Maybe a better one is a rolling save game like the one in Civ 5 and Europa Universalis 4. So the game will always save the last 5 (or whatever number) turns automatically.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen in FOW because I had a few panzers attacking the allied tank group 2-3 hexes to the north.



After playing the Basra scenario, I found it to be so much better than Palestine in terms of unit spawning. In Basra (spoiler warning!), the surprise comes from the massive airborne units. However since they need a turn to move the plane and then parachute in the next turn, it is absolutely fine. It gives the player at least one turn to react to the surprise.

Another good one is the Persia scenario where the Soviet sends amphibious assault. Again it is fine because the player has a turn or even more to react to it.

Contrast this with Palestine, Wassigny, Messina and others where the player doesn't even have any chance to do anything and will lose core units unless if he knows what is going to happen or lucky. Anything that prevents the AI from ninja-ing player's units is good!

sauvequipeut wrote:As far as I'm aware, the rules on new units and pre-programmed reinforcements differ, but are the same for both AI and player.

Where the player or AI buys a new unit, these cannot be used in the turn that they are placed - except the player can buy and place them any time in his turn while the AI buys and places them at the end of its turn. This gives the other side a full turn to spot and attack them before they do anything.

Where pre-programmed reinforcements are concerned, they arrive at the beginning of the turn and are ready for immediate use - this is the same for both AI and player.

This is true, but I think you are missing the OP's point. The fact that you can do the same to the enemy in no way ameliorates the fact that it can be done at all. Just because you could also get this opportunity does not make it fair.

I think the OP would far prefer it if it couldn't be done by anyone.

tmiranda wrote:If you use the scenario editor, you can check for those spawning A/C. This exact "feature" is exactly what got me started doing that. I now do it before each scenario, kinda like pre-battle intelligence.

You can do that, but it is no fun. Spoiling your experience by examining each scenario in the editor beforehand sounds like exactly the opposite of how I would like to play the game.

sauvequipeut wrote:As far as I can figure, the logic to having these counter-attack reinforcements appear mid-game is to prevent the player's air units from shooting and bombing them to oblivion long before their activation is triggered.

I don't think the OP is questioning the way reinforcements are trickling in all through the scenario in order to keep the player on his or her toes.

I think the OP wants the scenario designer to implement any such reinforcements in a logical manner, and in a way that allows an astute player to get fair warning beforehand.

I think the OP is complaining of how some reinforcements a) appear magically without having to "come from somewhere" and b) get to act immediately, thus providing a player with absolutely no warning, even if that player scouts his perimeter meticulously.

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Btw, the solution for scenario editors is:
1) Place your reinforcement units in a logical place on the map. By logical I mean "along a map edge adjacent to friendly territory" and not "in the middle of potentially enemy-controlled territory".
2) Set their AI orders to something stationary, such as "Hold (fire)".
3) Create a zone covering exactly those hexes where you placed your units
4) Create a script triggered by the appearance of your units in that zone, and use it to set the AI behaviour of units in the zone to "Attacker" (or whatever).

This will reward scouting and enable you to spot the enemy and cover your vulnerable units in time. Of course, if you, like me, do not feel it is fun to force the player to screen all of the map all the time, you would add a message warning the player of incoming reinforcements.

At least for ground units, an easier quick-fix would be simply to start the new units off with no fuel. That way, the computer begins by fueling them, in effect having them remain stationary for that first turn. (This solution only works for air units if deployed right next to an airfield you as the scenario designer is confident will be in friendly hands at the time when those units appear. And it works less well even for ground units on desert-heavy maps, since refuelling in a desert hex is so slow) For air units on larger maps, starting the planes off far into the distance (more than 12-14 hexes away) would accomplish pretty much all you want too.

But perhaps the best solution would be to not mess with any of that and simply display a warning message (giving the player one (1) turn to reorganize) each time there is reinforcements that logically the commander would know about (but without forcing the player to manually screen each hex himself, since that is a chore and not fun)... This would probably be sufficient for most cases, and it is very straightforward to implement.

timek28 wrote:So IMO what you experienced is probably a design bug (designers didn't put the parameter that AI should spawn units out of players sighting range).

I just checked. The spitfires will appear on turn 9, no matter what. (The only thing that can delay their appearance is if the specific hex is occupied, but this is per standard game behaviour, and not something coded for this scenario).

And yes, this is especially egregious since they appear within striking distance of pretty much everywhere in that first turn that they appear.

Here are a few proposed fixes for the scenario designer if and when the scenario gets updated...
A) move the units to start off at a more remote location
B) give the units a Random Move To starting orders, and designate a zone in some logical spot. This way, they will at least not attack the player's weakest spot on that first magical turn. For the zone, I suggest an remote airfield (to simulate refueling). If the player has already taken that airfield, the fact that the Spitfires arrive fully loaded should enable them to find another airfield well before they run out of fuel. Another suggestion is to set as the zone some strategic location (such as Jerusalem). However, in this case I would really recommend that the Axis player is given one turn's warning so he can at least provide fighter protection for vulnerable units.
C) give the units reduced fuel, forcing the AI to move them to an airfield on that first turn. The advantage compared to B) is that the AI can decide for itself which airfield. The disadvantage is that this leaves little room for error - should that airfield be taken (perhaps by Fallschirmsjager) the planes could easily drop out of the sky for lack of fuel, which could be anticlimactic compared to the designer's intentions. (Of course, it could also be seen as a reward for such forward deployment!)

or any of a host of other solutions... For instance, your proposal:
TIMEK28) Create a zone covering the three hexes of the Spitfires, as well as at least three hexes in every direction. Add the condition "no axis units in this zone" to the trigger of the three Spitfires. (And probably extend the time condition for at least a couple of turns, such as [9,11] so that a lucky fly-over doesn't entirely prevent the planes from appearing)

(Of course, that particular solution wouldn't save the OP's tac bomber... it would, however, avoid the "What the frak" moment where enemy units spontaneously appear right inside friendly territory without even the fog of war as an excuse)