Slitherine

The rules say that shock troops must pass a CMT test in order not to attempt a charge against an enemy in charge reach when you are the active player. Does this make sense for troops such as Roman Hastati/Princeps or Legionaires, which are defined as shock troops because they have the impact foot ability (due to their pila)? I would think this should only apply to undrilled, warband type troops - or am I missing something?

Peter

I think you are mixing a few points. There are benefits in the impact phase, but "impact foot" is a specific attirbute that I don't think the legionaires have.

pcelella wrote:The rules say that shock troops must pass a CMT test in order not to attempt a charge against an enemy in charge reach when you are the active player. Does this make sense for troops such as Roman Hastati/Princeps or Legionaires, which are defined as shock troops because they have the impact foot ability (due to their pila)? I would think this should only apply to undrilled, warband type troops - or am I missing something?

Peter

If my understanding is correct, being disciplined will make Romans considerably less likely to attack without orders. I would rationalise such an attack not as the troops running out of control, but as a junior commander trained in a doctrine of the offensive thinking that he can do as the unnamed tribune at Cynoscephalae did and win the battle by acting on his own initiative.

hazelbark wrote:
I think you are mixing a few points. There are benefits in the impact phase, but "impact foot" is a specific attirbute that I don't think the legionaires have.

They certainly do, its their Impact phase PoA

pcelella wrote:
The rules say that shock troops must pass a CMT test in order not to attempt a charge against an enemy in charge reach when you are the active player. Does this make sense for troops such as Roman Hastati/Princeps or Legionaires, which are defined as shock troops because they have the impact foot ability (due to their pila)? I would think this should only apply to undrilled, warband type troops - or am I missing something?

Sort of missing something, or perhaps just coming from DBM or similar which categorises certain "irregular" troops as "impetuous", etc.

The Shock Troops comcept is for those troops whose tactical doctrine or basic inclination is to close to hand to hand combat quickly and decisively - thus, as LambertSimnel says, for legionarii it represents the tribunes, centurions, etc. implementing those doctrines when the troops are close enough to the enemy. If the general hadn't wanted them to attack he wouldn't have got them that close to the enemy BTW there are some cases of Romans attacking without orders or clamouring to be let at the enemy but being restrained and this mechanism helps represent those times.

Also as stated it is easier for drilled troops to pass the test than undrilled ones so "warband" types will tend to go in whether you want them to or not more frequently than, say, Romans.

IMO it is quite a clever mechanism, certainly better than the crude (and to be honest unrealistic) Impetuous mechanism of DBM and similar games and, for example, allows Arsuf to work with the military order milites forming the rear guard as they can be better trusted to not charge off without orders, but yet still eventually doing so under Saracen provocation (in FoG terms eventually failed the CMT to prevent charging).

hazelbark wrote:There are benefits in the impact phase, but "impact foot" is a specific attirbute that I don't think the legionaires have.

Nik has covered it well. Lancers, pikes, imact foot (legionaries, warband, probably viking types), offensive spearmen (but not defensive spearmen) are shock troops. Once in charge range of non-skirmishers they may charge without orders.

Thus if you try and "hold" the battle line close to the enemy you may find part of your line surging foward. In effect some of the troops are saying things like "What does our commander know? Just get stuck in! What can possibly go wrong?"

Drilled troops have a better chance of obeying orders. But you really don't want to bother dithering with shock troops near the enemy. Just get stuck in! What can possibly go wrong?

Neil

Thanks guys

Reading your replies, and after further reflection, I must say that I couldn't agree more. I guess it's that I'm coming from the Warrior/WRG 7th system of Irregular A type troops running off on impetuous charges. This system is in this regard (and the others I've worked my way through) much more elegant. And simpler to play too!

Peter

[quote="nikgaukroger]
They certainly do, its their Impact phase PoA
[/quote]


Well put that down as item number 372 that i misread. I see how you get there, but while i know it is too late i hope "impact troop capablity" is defined in the expanded glossary, because i couldn't find a definiation and went with "impact foot"

Dan I'd like to comment but have no idea what your problem is here

IMO things like Impact Foot and Shock Troops are well explained already. Perhaps you could expand on the issue?

nikgaukroger wrote:Dan I'd like to comment but have no idea what your problem is here

MY Problem

Is I should not write to this board late at night as gaming, sleep depreviation and a nice Pinot Noir combine for me being clumsy.

Yes it is perfect clear and I am totally wrong. Somehow i was looking at non-legionaires. So they didn't have impact foot listed. Then i was trying to use the shock tropp definiation sans "impact foot".

So memo to self engage brain.

A nice pinot noir is a perfectly good excuse IMO

Luckily, not being wine impacted, I remembered to search before coming on to ask exactly the same question. I've just re-read sections of the beta about 10 times thinking surely not, and coming to the same conclusions as posted here re the likely answer (and of course, surely so).

Being totally unused to this with my normally stalwart legions (in both 15 and 25 mm) it will be a very interesting mechanic, with their training helping their restraint most of the time (I hope). Just off to flick back through the rules to check that:

a) The presence of (an attached only?) commander will help further

b) Screening the legionaries with velites/auxilliaries is one of the 'need not' get out clauses

Very nice mechanic indeed (provided they 'hold the line')

For what it's worth, at Warfare I had 4 BGs of Legionaries and I didn't charge anything or at any time I didn't want to charge. Anyway, in most circumstances you'll want to charge so it's okay. Only against shock mounted will you want to receive the charge, and in that case the shock mounted will set up outside your 3 MUs so you don't have to test.

I thought foot Shock Troops didn't have to test to not charge against mounted anyway

nikgaukroger wrote:I thought foot Shock Troops didn't have to test to not charge against mounted anyway

They don't.

Yes I seem to remember foot charges against mounted (or at least most, if not all, of them) was an exception.

That makes my point even more valid then!
How many times will your legionaries be facing other foot you don't want to charge? Only against Def Spearmen, but you surely aren't going to win the game by just standing there.

I'm not sure a 'point' needs to be made???

carlos wrote:That makes my point even more valid then!
How many times will your legionaries be facing other foot you don't want to charge? Only against Def Spearmen, but you surely aren't going to win the game by just standing there.

Exactly. Why wouldn't you want to charge defensive spearmen? You can hardly expect them to charge you, and how else are you going to win the game except by getting your legionaries stuck into them? (Legionaries will be at a significant advantage against most defensive spears).

It is for the Roman player to ensure that his legionaries do not arrive piecemeal.

99% of the time I suspect that is what you will want to do. Still going through the rules at the moment and just trying to sort in my head theoretical situations where battle groups might get pulled out of line when you don't want them to, or at least not on their own. There must at times be a desire to hold them back, otherwise, why have a CMT available to do so.

Empgamer wrote:99% of the time I suspect that is what you will want to do. Still going through the rules at the moment and just trying to sort in my head theoretical situations where battle groups might get pulled out of line when you don't want them to, or at least not on their own. There must at times be a desire to hold them back, otherwise, why have a CMT available to do so.

It is usually an issue of bad timing, or failure to screen your foot from enemy light foot skirmishers. The CMT gives the player a chance to hold them long enough for friends to catch up. However, a really skilled player would not get into such a position. (At least, that is the theory - it gives us all something to aim for anyway).

I took numerous tests for troops not to charge over the Clevedon weekend tournament, and only failed one - not to charge enemy skirmishers with my thorakitai. As it turned out, even that worked in my favour as it led the enemy to advance his pikemen into a disadvantageous position because of my apparent disarray.