Slitherine

If you have shock troops and could charge 2 possible targets but want to stay put do you have to test twice? If you pass the first test then fail the second that means you could end up contacting the first one anyway?

(eg if you have 2 battle groups in front of you and the right edge of one is directly behind the left edge of the other).

No, you only test once.

When a battle group makes a charge it must charge every enemy that it can legally contact. So the choice whether or not to charge is a single decision.

zoltan wrote: When a battle group makes a charge it must charge every enemy that it can legally contact. So the choice whether or not to charge is a single decision.

I don't have my rules with me but "every enemy that it can legally contact." i don't recall that wording. I don't think you have to chrage everyone. Just someone.

But either way you only test once.

hazelbark wrote:

zoltan wrote: When a battle group makes a charge it must charge every enemy that it can legally contact. So the choice whether or not to charge is a single decision.

I don't have my rules with me but "every enemy that it can legally contact." i don't recall that wording. I don't think you have to chrage everyone. Just someone.

Nope - you have to charge all possible battlegroups you can.

Pg 64 or 9-8 (incidentally, 9-9 appears to be missing...)

"shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target target battle groups within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead"

Therefore if you can charge multiple BG's, you must.

Therefore if you can charge multiple BG's, you must.

But you most definitely only have to test once.

"Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target target battle groups within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead"

is not the same as

you have to charge all possible battlegroups you can

If your "nearest to straight ahead" charge move will only contact one enemy BG, you don't wheel to contact any more.

kevinj wrote:

"Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target target battle groups within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead"

is not the same as

you have to charge all possible battlegroups you can

If your "nearest to straight ahead" charge move will only contact one enemy BG, you don't wheel to contact any more.

I disagree - there is more text on the initial page, but I think "Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target target battle groups" makes it very clear that if you can possibly charge all BG's within range you do. The fact it goes on to say if they can't charge all of the BG's in range they charge the one nearest to straight ahead indicates that a wheel is compulsory if it would contact all BG's in range.

As Pete said, you do only test once though.

it goes on to say if they can't charge all of the BG's in range they charge the one nearest to straight ahead indicates that a wheel is compulsory if it would contact all BG's in range.

It actually says "charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead." So if you could possibly contact 3 BGs individually but only 1 straight ahead and 2 with a slight wheel, wouldn't this wording of "one(s)" require you to wheel to contact 2 instead of just 1 straight ahead?

Sounds to me like Dave has the right interpretation.

After re-reading the RAW more carefully...

The general rule in the case of a BG deciding to 'voluntarily' declare a charge:
P9-1 A BG can declare charges on as many enemy BGs as can legally be contacted within its move distance.
To me this implies that the chargers can elect to charge some or all of the enemy BGs within its move distance.

However, there are special rules for shock troops testing not to charge:
P9-8 To prevent them from charging any enemy BGs.
To me any implies each and every enemy BG rather than any one of.

P9-9 ...who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.
To me all reinforces the P9-8 requirement that the charge target for shock troops is every enemy BG that can be reached.

But again, the shock troops only roll the dice once (per move) to test not to charge, regardless of the number of potential charge targets.

P9-9 ...who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.
To me all reinforces the P9-8 requirement that the charge target for shock troops is every enemy BG that can be reached.

But again, the shock troops only roll the dice once (per move) to test not to charge, regardless of the number of potential charge targets.

So if you just want shock troops to charge 1 BG instead of 2 or 3, declare a charge and you don't have to worry about rolling not to charge. Then you can charge as you wish as long as the number of combat dice don't decrease.

zoltan wrote:After re-reading the RAW more carefully...

The general rule in the case of a BG deciding to 'voluntarily' declare a charge:
P9-1 A BG can declare charges on as many enemy BGs as can legally be contacted within its move distance.
To me this implies that the chargers can elect to charge some or all of the enemy BGs within its move distance.

However, there are special rules for shock troops testing not to charge:
P9-8 To prevent them from charging any enemy BGs.
To me any implies each and every enemy BG rather than any one of.

P9-9 ...who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.
To me all reinforces the P9-8 requirement that the charge target for shock troops is every enemy BG that can be reached.

But again, the shock troops only roll the dice once (per move) to test not to charge, regardless of the number of potential charge targets.

I don't agree. P9-8 is whether you are going to charge or not. As in "I don't want to charge any of that lot, so I'll test not to".

P9-9 just says what happens if I can't contact all the BGs I could possibly charge. i.e. take all possible charge situations and this rule simply deals with the subset where it's impossible to hit everybody. It doesn't come into effect if I can contact all potential targets.

grahambriggs wrote:

zoltan wrote:After re-reading the RAW more carefully...

The general rule in the case of a BG deciding to 'voluntarily' declare a charge:
P9-1 A BG can declare charges on as many enemy BGs as can legally be contacted within its move distance.
To me this implies that the chargers can elect to charge some or all of the enemy BGs within its move distance.

However, there are special rules for shock troops testing not to charge:
P9-8 To prevent them from charging any enemy BGs.
To me any implies each and every enemy BG rather than any one of.

P9-9 ...who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.
To me all reinforces the P9-8 requirement that the charge target for shock troops is every enemy BG that can be reached.

But again, the shock troops only roll the dice once (per move) to test not to charge, regardless of the number of potential charge targets.

I don't agree. P9-8 is whether you are going to charge or not. As in "I don't want to charge any of that lot, so I'll test not to".

P9-9 just says what happens if I can't contact all the BGs I could possibly charge. i.e. take all possible charge situations and this rule simply deals with the subset where it's impossible to hit everybody. It doesn't come into effect if I can contact all potential targets.

Would you guys be a little more specific, please. I'm not sure what Graham is disagreeing with.

The way i read it is:

1. If shock declare a charge, they can choose their target as long as they satisfy the wheel restriction on page 57 about not throwing less combat dice.

2, If shock fail a CMT not to charge, then they must charge all targets within charge range, wheeling if necessary to accomplish this. If it isn't possible to charge all targets, then they must attempt to contact the most BGs possible while contacting the one nearest to straight ahead. In effect, you've lost control of your line of battle.

bbotus wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:

zoltan wrote:After re-reading the RAW more carefully...

The general rule in the case of a BG deciding to 'voluntarily' declare a charge:
P9-1 A BG can declare charges on as many enemy BGs as can legally be contacted within its move distance.
To me this implies that the chargers can elect to charge some or all of the enemy BGs within its move distance.

However, there are special rules for shock troops testing not to charge:
P9-8 To prevent them from charging any enemy BGs.
To me any implies each and every enemy BG rather than any one of.

P9-9 ...who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead.
To me all reinforces the P9-8 requirement that the charge target for shock troops is every enemy BG that can be reached.

But again, the shock troops only roll the dice once (per move) to test not to charge, regardless of the number of potential charge targets.

I don't agree. P9-8 is whether you are going to charge or not. As in "I don't want to charge any of that lot, so I'll test not to".

P9-9 just says what happens if I can't contact all the BGs I could possibly charge. i.e. take all possible charge situations and this rule simply deals with the subset where it's impossible to hit everybody. It doesn't come into effect if I can contact all potential targets.

Would you guys be a little more specific, please. I'm not sure what Graham is disagreeing with.

The way i read it is:

1. If shock declare a charge, they can choose their target as long as they satisfy the wheel restriction on page 57 about not throwing less combat dice.

2, If shock fail a CMT not to charge, then they must charge all targets within charge range, wheeling if necessary to accomplish this. If it isn't possible to charge all targets, then they must attempt to contact the most BGs possible while contacting the one nearest to straight ahead. In effect, you've lost control of your line of battle.

Apologies. I disagree with the first sentence of your conclusion 2. I do not believe that shock troops who have failed their test to charge are necessarily obliged to charge all targets. There are constraints upon them (must declare a charge, can't wheel so that they would have less dice than a straight ahead charge would give them, etc) but I can't see anything in the rules that says they have to charge all targets.

I believe people have read things into the rules that are not there. Specifically they have read the P9-8 test to prevent them charging any enemy BGs as meaning "any and every" BG must be charged if they fail.

I believe the difference is that "I'm going to test myself by going into a bar and not having any of the alcoholic drinks" does NOT mean that if I go into the bar and have an alcoholic drink, I have to have all of them.

Oh.

Well, analogies are never exact.

I disagree with Graham's suggestion that troops who fail a test not to charge can be selective about which enemy bgs they move towards. The preamble of the section in the rules makes it clear that we are talking about a "loss of control" situation ("impetuous" in old money or "uncontrolled advance" in ancient money).

Having failed the test the battle troops are keen to get stuck in and hare off into the blue yonder. It is not a case of them saying, "Well now that we have to charge, let's just charge those easy beats slightly to the right and avoid those ugly guys slightly to the left". No, its more a case of "Bags of smoke and up the guts, fellahs!"

The rules are pretty specific here. If a BG fails the test not to charge it must charge all potential targets. If unable to contact all potential targets it charges the one(s) most nearly straight ahead. So if there were three BGs in charge range, one to the left, one to the right and one dead ahead, it must charge straight ahead. If two BGs are in range, one to the right and one to the left, it wheels toward the BG which is most nearly straight ahead.

gozerius wrote:The rules are pretty specific here. If a BG fails the test not to charge it must charge all potential targets. If unable to contact all potential targets it charges the one(s) most nearly straight ahead. So if there were three BGs in charge range, one to the left, one to the right and one dead ahead, it must charge straight ahead. If two BGs are in range, one to the right and one to the left, it wheels toward the BG which is most nearly straight ahead.

I read it the same way as you and Zolton. Once a Shock BG loses a CMT not to charge, you no longer get to decide how they will charge. You must follow the RAW as close as possible.

Hopefully the electronic version is the same as the hard copy. My hard copy says, "Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead." Is the electronic version identical?

bbotus wrote:

gozerius wrote:The rules are pretty specific here. If a BG fails the test not to charge it must charge all potential targets. If unable to contact all potential targets it charges the one(s) most nearly straight ahead. So if there were three BGs in charge range, one to the left, one to the right and one dead ahead, it must charge straight ahead. If two BGs are in range, one to the right and one to the left, it wheels toward the BG which is most nearly straight ahead.

I read it the same way as you and Zolton. Once a Shock BG loses a CMT not to charge, you no longer get to decide how they will charge. You must follow the RAW as close as possible.

Hopefully the electronic version is the same as the hard copy. My hard copy says, "Shock troops charging without orders who cannot contact all potential target BGs within charge range, charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead." Is the electronic version identical?

Yes, the electronic version has identical wording.

gozerius wrote:The rules are pretty specific here. If a BG fails the test not to charge it must charge all potential targets.

Could you point to where that sentence is in the rules please? I'm happy to admit I'm wrong as I may have missed something (I was going from what Zoltan quoted rather than reading through the rules)

grahambriggs wrote:

gozerius wrote:The rules are pretty specific here. If a BG fails the test not to charge it must charge all potential targets.

Could you point to where that sentence is in the rules please? I'm happy to admit I'm wrong as I may have missed something (I was going from what Zoltan quoted rather than reading through the rules)

I've quoted it above. "If it is not possible to charge all potential targets".

Therefore if you can charge all potential targets you do.

The wording was very clear under v1, could somebody check what it states - I sdont have the v1 rulebook available until Friday.